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Capture Points - Official discussion thread

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@pycet I agree that the people who can build resources quicker will have an advantage.  But how is starting off equal better than them starting off with more gear from the begging?  Getting hand me downs is not even in most peoples eyes.

I do totally agree with your comments of going back to kickstarter ways. 

I believe it is a perception issue.  Any advantage for veterans is not going to be viewed positively.  In a traditional MMORPG that is PvE it isn’t a big deal.   If you start late it is just life, you will catch up eventually.  You get to do the same content.

But in a competitive PvP game, people hate if the game hands out any advantage.  Same for any campaign games.  Look at how they complained about P2W for VIP.   If I played my friend Horse and I won, I don’t think next time we played he would be happy saying I get a handicap of H.  If anything I should give him the handicap.

Diehard players won’t mind and that is probably the majority in the game now.  But I can say for sure, that many in my guild absolute hate any advantage, be it P2W or veteran players.

 

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Posted (edited)

For me I would would be happy with a SB/Character wipe and leave the skills.

What I would like to see is tying the outposts near forts to the rank and number guards at the fort or a defender buff when inside the fort (tech is already there with beachhead debuff and Thrall crafting buff). Also addressing the lvl1 rush out and cap stuff needs to be done.

 

The current archframe leveling issue is complex as if nerfed into the ground will just lead to players finding the "next" best crafting item to sac for XP. At least the frames require a bit of harvesting and when Disc's become harder to obtain a possible conflict point over it.

Edited by Grivyn

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Posted (edited)

I feel like continuing with skills (as they don't make an extremely large contribution to combat effectiveness) would be best.

Character imports are fine (who wants to build arches anyways?)

Let us import 10 items total so we can get some decent gear to start; and this will show new players what they can become.While giving guilds time to equip their newbies rather than themselves.

Put exports to 30, so we have to choose what is truly important to us.

This also makes being safe out there extra important as we would have to travel back and forth from forts/keeps to keep our stacks of resources safe, and promotes moving around in the world rather than just stashing things In the SB and continuing with no fear of death.

If this doesn't work, then wiping everything but skills may be necessary; but fix the sacrifice amount of crafted items. Especially building pieces.

 

 

Edited by OsirianLegacy

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One thing that can, and I might even argue should, be done in any case is to flatten stat progression across tiers. The raw numbers gap between Haves and Have Nots seems wildly wide at the moment. When you compare a vanilla starter vessel with like 5-10 in starting stats compared to even a simple common-quality crafted vessel with 20-30 stats...that's pretty significant difference given how much those stats cascade to sub-stats. And that level of disparity seems to exist between each tier.

Not only should that gap be made smaller, but it likely needs to be on a logarithmic, or diminishing scale. Blue gear gets you more stats than green gear, but not so much of a difference as between green gets you over white, etc.

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44 minutes ago, Zorph said:

@pycet I agree that the people who can build resources quicker will have an advantage.  But how is starting off equal better than them starting off with more gear from the begging?  Getting hand me downs is not even in most peoples eyes.

I believe it is a perception issue.  Any advantage for veterans is not going to be viewed positively.  In a traditional MMORPG that is PvE it isn’t a big deal.   If you start late it is just life, you will catch up eventually.  You get to do the same content.

But in a competitive PvP game, people hate if the game hands out any advantage.  Same for any campaign games.  Look at how they complained about P2W for VIP.   If I played my friend Horse and I won, I don’t think next time we played he would be happy saying I get a handicap of H.  If anything I should give him the handicap.

Diehard players won’t mind and that is probably the majority in the game now.  But I can say for sure, that many in my guild absolute hate any advantage, be it P2W or veteran players.

 

 

 

I'm not really sure of your position.  Are you discussing how you feel about the game or how you believe others might?

I think people advocating for a wipe bear the burden of proof.  If you're wanting a wipe, then I think you need to specifically articulate why a wipe must occur.  I haven't really seen that in this thread.  It's basically a bunch of people complaining that they think it's unfair without actually stating specifically why.

Can you please articulate the advantage gained by the average player carrying his gear over to a new campaign?  [aside from actually getting people to invest time in the game, since those items represent the fruit of one's gaming labor]. 

To help you get started, there was recently a thread regarding a blue vessel versus the starting vessel. 

 

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I don't realy care if vessels or SB get wiped, but never ever dare to touch the passive skill training... there is no reason to do so. Combat skills are giving out a very small bonus... and most fights are uneven to some extend, this is not a MOBA it's an MMO. Dueling should never be the focus of balancing, as it is not the intended way of PvP anyway. Furthermore news players are always asking on how to get better gear and are kinda depressed by the answer: "Get your head around 5 different crafting trees, dozens of base materials spread out in the world and somehow manage to craft some stuff". The crafting has never been intended to be done by new players on their own. But they can't buy stuff if farming resources is a huge pain because no one has any skills to do so. I guess most of them would be pleased with the following answer: "Go to the Free City, there are stores offering advanced common weapons for X Gold." 

New players are going to be bad at the game, simply because they don't know what they are doing. Thats ok and they will have some fun figuring it out (as everyone else had) As @Jah stated a few times, if the passive skill training is becoming a problem now, the system has some severe flaws. I don't see any of these severe flaws, but I could be wrong, better to find it out now then making some crucial changes to the system post-release. 

We also have to test a 0 skill scenario, but I guess 6.0 and Alpha is a good time to do this kind of testing. And testing it at the Beta-Phase again. Always keep in mind, that the 0 Skill thing is only going to happen once - at release.

IMO the best thing to do would be a very low import without any pre-existing characters. And make every Stonemasonry Item of poor quality - so it can no longer be sacrificed at higher levels. You can fix the sacrifice values later, bringing back shiny colours in the process.


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i would say 

it dont means anything if you dont full wipe .. 

Spirit bank + Character = they skills still active .....and ppl farm in maybee 1-2 days a lot of stuff and catch up to actually status ... so no point in doing so 

as long there are no tomb to get ppl catch up .. full wipe the stuff 

Fair thing to all and maybee the new player can feel the pvp also than .. actually they are  more like meatshields and pvp gets frustrating to them 

Advanced common and advanced rare + is a big diffrence ..

The crafted Vessels also a Point .. that stat boost ...

to be fair and bring fun to all a full wipe is what you are looking for 

 

just my 2cent

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

i feel fine with everything you decide :P

but this point seem legit 

9 minutes ago, DropkickMurphy said:

Fair thing to all and maybee the new player can feel the pvp also than .. actually they are  more like meatshields and pvp gets frustrating to them 

Maybee we get large scale PvP without NA joining EU to Siege ;)

 

Edit : It is still Pre Alpha.... so plz stop Mimimi about a Wipe 

Edited by Roccah

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4 hours ago, Pycet said:

PS, I wouldn't have a sanctioned campaign until the performance is better during larger scale battles.  It's really the #1, #2, and #3 most important issue.

Agree. If they cant fix the performance issues with groups of 30 or more players there is no reason to work on other issues. If it was only a drop to 30 fps I wouldn't be worried since its alpha, but its not, framerate drops to a slideshow for even those with good gaming rigs. Once they start adding in more serverside checks to combat folks hacking cooldowns, movement, range, autoaim, minimap, ect  it will only get worse. 

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3 minutes ago, mystafyi said:

[...] Once they start adding in more serverside checks to combat folks hacking cooldowns, movement, range, autoaim, minimap, ect  it will only get worse. 

As far as I know everything is serverside in this game, because Todd hates cheaters and is well aware of the devastating effects of ppl cheating. That's also one of the reasons the performance is quite bad. 


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I guess my question for all in favor of a wipe is why you would want to ruin the accumulation of time for casual or solo players?  I'm a casual player (~10 hours a week, 15 if I'm lucky).  Before I got into a guild, the hardest part for me was always getting started.  Pushing trees, crafting terrible basic harvesting tools, accumulating enough resources to craft crappy intermediate gear, etc.  Once I got enough passive training to make some stuff myself (which has been all but eliminated with the new crafting discs - which is probably a good thing even though I don't really like it as a crafter) or, alternatively, killed enough mobs to pay for advanced gear, then grind was largely gone.  I could then really venture more proper into the world and try to determine what I like doing. 

The pre-advanced gear period was not fun in the slightest and took many hours without much information, dealing with gankers, etc.  There were many inherent setbacks and time sinks.  Every time a wipe happened, I was stuck with the grind again.  I never got to really advance because I kept having to spend time getting my feet off the ground.

Instead of spending weeks playing to try to get advanced gear, it now takes me a couple hours of coordination in a guild.  I'm busy harvesting, others are busy crafting; I feed them and they feed me.  The process quick and painless.  On the first day, I'll be in advanced gear, riding the fastest mount, at the level cap. 

When you force wipes, yes, you'll be wiping the inventory of the relatively wealthy, but you'll also be terrorizing the people without as many resources, who cannot sink as much time into the game and who may not know (or be good at figuring out) the most efficient way to do things.  They won't be able to keep the fruit of their hours of labor, as meager as it may be.  Wipes are a terribly regressive tax in Crowfall.

 

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@pycet I talked to many in our guild, most who have not played but are considering this game.  Everyone said even if it doesn't make a difference they would be very concerned with playing a campaign PvP game that the game gives any advantage to veterans.

I wouldn't join a competitive bowling league that gave even 5 pins to people who came back from the previous year.  Skills can be Ok if they have a catch up mechanic,  But if they don't people will say it is no different than p2w giving an advantage. 

If I had to pay $100 to be able to bring stuff into the game, would that be p2w?  Would people scream from the roof tops?  Losing because players are better is not the same as losing because the game gives it to them.

There is also a huge gap with haviing larger guilds in this game, which a totally different conversation.  Same with knowledge gap.

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PS PS...

Before sanctioned campaigns go live, buff tree HP as well as siege equipment... oh AND fix teleporting through walls, or else this will fail. Exploiting through the keep walls with duelists, assassins, confessors etc. and killing the tree exists

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Posted (edited)

The Capture Bonus Pool accumulating free points doesn't incentivize  PVP in the aggregate, I like the concept, but dislike the implementation of points coming from an arbitrary source. There is no PVP or player participation while attackers are waiting for the maximum point accumulation before launching an offensive.

Instead link the local towers to the parent Fort. And every tower you hold around an enemy Fort accrues Bonus Pool Points (BPP) towards the capture of the parent Fort. This can be done with smaller groups, Uncle Bob can't be everywhere at once.

Plus Fort walls should not go vulnerable unless 60-80% of the local towers are held by the opposing faction/factions, this moves the back-capping down to the Tower level where smaller groups can engage each other and contribute to controlling or disrupting the flow of BPP. 

 

Edited by corvax

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Posted (edited)

I consider that this is a big move for publicity and visibility of the game - 

In this scenario, it is best to wipe everything. 

 

If you want to consider the players already invested, then don't wipe, just make it "new vessel" only with no import/export, and keep the passive skills.

 

Edit: Export only available to winning faction

Edited by ilogos

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19 hours ago, moneda said:

I've been an advocate for that change for a long while. Here are some other changes I'd really like to see implemented before the ~*~first sanctioned campaign~*~ despite them probably being scheduled for 6.0:

- Locking disciplines to vessels
- Requiring a runecrafter craft major disciplines (even from dust & ore if not from NPC drops)
- Locking out Spirit Bank access from any/everywhere in the world

The game will be fundamentally different with these changes and it seems strange to me we'd see an "official" competition happen before they're in.

 

One of the better aspects of having so many outposts on the map so near each other is that one can sit with it open and watch the color of flags change, showing you what faction(s) may be on the map and in what direction they're going.

Oh, and speaking of the map, can we get some clarification regarding the scoreboard?

- What contributes to my personal score?
- Does someone I kill have to be level 30 for it to count? Do they have to belong to a guild? (I've seen both of those "theories" bandied about on streams with zero evidence to back them up but with total belief that both are true.) Is there a cooldown on how long between successive kills on one person will be counted?
- Should the accumulated individual scores of all members of a guild equal the score attributed to their guild atop the board of their faction?

I'm sure I could come up with some more questions if I wanted but my point in asking them is that none of us even know if the scoreboard or point accumulation in general is even working right now and I'd like that not to be the case. Can we get a rundown on how it should be working currently?

 

Regarding the wiping of gear or skills... I can't say I currently care. I can say that I've been playing as though I didn't expect one, that I've foolishly told people in my guild not to expect one, and that I don't know what affect believing there will be one would have on current activity/motivation to log in.

 

Also, I'd like to suggest to ACE that my play time is not a problem that needs fixing. I work nights, which means a lot of my weekly play time will be mornings and early afternoons, and throughout the night on my days off. People who play on the same server as I will might see whatever I do while they're asleep, at work, or at school as "unfair" or some other nonsense and I just want to emphasis that my play time is just as valuable as anyone else's, regardless of what time of the day it occurs in, and I'd appreciate my influence in this throne war simulator not being handicapped because of somebody else's bedtime.

Im here with moneda, the whole post!

Just want to add: if Disciplines 2.0 version is in good shape to Patch on test, make it! Believe we all will welcome it very good (i personally want to hunt those thralls and see discs in economy).

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Been reading all the feedback here, all have their reason and mind to point in need. 

I am fine with decision ACE make to archive the goals you aim, it is pre-alpha test anyway ;)

My take:

Wipe or not to wipes: Leave skills running (if update arrives on time - wipe) to keep tracking impacts on mid/late game of continuing CW season. Wipe SB and vessels if you dont block imports.

Capture points mechanics: Good options in table, lets test them ;)

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Posted (edited)

It's a big mistake to treat Crowfall like an old-school MMORPG, which mostly centers around PvE. Crowfall has more in common with a MOBA and where it does not, it shows to have very negative effects on the gameplay. This is a fundamental issue and was obvious from the beginning.

While I am very happy with the technical advances of this game, I am still puzzled by the bad state of fundamental core concepts of the game as a game. The victory condition system right now feels like a placeholder. Introducing new knobs to tune the counting system is like adjusting the speed of a ski lift that only leads to a dangerous area, where each step sets off an avalanche of snowballing. The main problem of Crowfall is the massive exponential power curve of multiple sub-systems reenforcing each other. As mentioned by others, the first step is already the pure knowledge. This leads to faster leveling, faster harvesting, better items, better harvesting, better gear and so on, because I don't even know exactly where it stops. And all that even at a fresh start after a wipe – it'll be much worse after some months of passive training.

You have to focus on this core problem and shouldn't be afraid of looking at how MOBAs tackle the problem of the slippery slope. League of Legends is very good at giving a reward for killing opponents, while at the same time giving the weaker side the chance for a come-back. No to turn Crowfall into a MOBA, but to see the key of their success! Just to mention some concepts quickly: 1) different power curves, 2) map design which favors the defending side, 3) power cap (full item build after 40-50 minutes).

I want to give a probably extreme example of how to find a solution for the slippery slope:

Capping of all combat stats that gradually grows during the campaign

So in short I propose to make a global capping of the relevant combat stats for all players. For example on day 1 the max level could be 5, you could only use basic or intermediate gear and there would be caps on stats that limit the effect of passive training. (I know, level 5 is probably too low, but the number doesn't matter.) The caps will increase each day, and at some point in the winter be lifted totally.

The goals are

  1. to make the playfield even
  2. to encourage PvP on day 1
  3. to limit the effect of game time invested
  4. to make the game experience generally more diverse, because the available powers vary drastically in each phase
  5. to introduce a power curve differentiation
  6. to protect beginner and casual players without punishing veterans: win-win

Point 5 is especially important to consider:

  1. Each class could have a different power curve. That would mean that the faction, which was very weak at the start, could turn out to be superior in the end and conquer back the map.
  2. Limit and distribute the population to the factions by sophisticated rules that take into consideration the different actual power levels of each Crowfall account. For example a veteran crow could count as two or even more beginner crows. This way you could have a scenario where a guild of veterans is the core of a faction, which is totally outnumbered and very weak in the beginning, but at the end of the campaign will be much more powerful than a faction with only noobs and lack of epic gear.

Beyond this capping, there are other ways to deal with a massively dominant hegemony of one side. In a 3 faction war an obvious solution is that the weaker factions work together to fight the winning one. The game could give incentives for that or even an in-game hard coded alliance (f.e. no friendly fire) of the losing factions, which will have the opportunity to win the campaign, albeit with a reduced reward.

As said, one major problem is the current abstract victory condition system. It is so detached from actual gameplay that it's very hard to balance it right, or even to make it appealing to play. It would be much more effective and satisfying, if the victory were tied to some actual in game event, like winning a decisive battle or achieving some concrete goal (to own a certain number of keeps, to destroy a huge hunger crystal, to defeat the avatar of Malekai, whatever, it's your job to come up with a better idea than a victory point system that would be even too boring for a board game). There are many good suggestions on these forums to make the control of the map more meaningful. Giving vision of enemy movements, access to better resources, granting buffs or making them conditions to conquer neighboring camps / outposts / forts / keeps. There are lots of opportunities.

One thing is sure: The current iteration doesn't work well for newcomers. They expect a PvP game and are forced to grind for hours without having any chance to find a fair and decent PvP situation.

Edited by Doradur

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39 minutes ago, Doradur said:

In a 3 faction war an obvious solution is that the weaker factions work together to fight the winning one. The game could give incentives for that or even an in-game hard coded alliance (f.e. no friendly fire)...

Just so newcomers know, when the 3-faction system was first implemented this was how it worked, and the playtesters were quite vocal about how much they hated it. :lol:


Hi, I'm moneda.

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