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Glitchhiker

Fundamental tray imbalance

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I have no idea havent played 5.8. But bow knight is something Blair has mentioned a few times in the past.

19 minutes ago, mandalore said:

Can everybody still just equip those?

 

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The only bow restriction recently implemented was to the Master of Bows weapon mastery disc, which basically forced anyone who wanted to use it (who wasn't a Ranger) to use Sharpshooter or Arcane Archer to grant them the ability to equip bows first.

As for the rest of this thread... LOL.

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16 hours ago, mandalore said:

I’ll do you a solid.  Make a post you want me to post on the dev partner boards and I’ll tag JTC in it.  I’ll have to put in the question that I’m going to post it here but I won’t alter it otherwise.  They do a good job answering questions there.  So phrase it better and post it here and I’ll post it there for you. 

@Glitchhiker

That's pretty cool of you, thanks. So basically what I want to know is:

Have the devs already considered the class imbalance that comes with having more combat trays than others? Eg. having more trays means your default class abilities get distributed into 2 or more trays, so even tho there are restrictions to slotting abilities in certain trays, multi-tray classes have more slots left for discipline abilites in all of their trays, than a single-tray class would. That means multi-tray classes  don't have to choose so much between what abilities they want to slot (which most players think, is a important part of creating a unique character) and also end up with way more abilities than single tray classes, making them generally more adaptable to specific situation/enemies.

Are there advantages of single-tray classes that i haven't considered to balance this out?

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57 minutes ago, Glitchhiker said:

That's pretty cool of you, thanks. So basically what I want to know is:

Have the devs already considered the class imbalance that comes with having more combat trays than others? Eg. having more trays means your default class abilities get distributed into 2 or more trays, so even tho there are restrictions to slotting abilities in certain trays, multi-tray classes have more slots left for discipline abilites in all of their trays, than a single-tray class would. That means multi-tray classes  don't have to choose so much between what abilities they want to slot (which most players think, is a important part of creating a unique character) and also end up with way more abilities than single tray classes, making them generally more adaptable to specific situation/enemies.

Are there advantages of single-tray classes that i haven't considered to balance this out?

5

Yes, they've considered it when designing the classes. Its a key point of balancing for them.

You are ignoring the fact that even if the Brigan can slot 40 powers, even with all discipline slots filled in, they don't have 40 powers. 

You are ignoring that all powers use resources to be "cast" which is the limiting factor for most classes, not the cooldowns on powers. 

You are ignoring that simply having more powers to spam, does not actually make you better or more effective in combat.

Not sure anything you've said warrants any action at this point. Balancing is an ongoing and never-ending process, I wouldn't worry about it.

 

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7 minutes ago, Scree said:

Yes, they've considered it when designing the classes. Its a key point of balancing for them.

You are ignoring the fact that even if the Brigan can slot 40 powers, even with all discipline slots filled in, they don't have 40 powers. 

You are ignoring that all powers use resources to be "cast" which is the limiting factor for most classes, not the cooldowns on powers. 

You are ignoring that simply having more powers to spam, does not actually make you better or more effective in combat.

Not sure anything you've said warrants any action at this point. Balancing is an ongoing and never-ending process, I wouldn't worry about it.

 

You aparently haven't read or understood what I said properly. 

I never talked about combat prowess by spamming a mass of abilities. What I'm talking about is flexibility by having alot of abilities to your disposal. A knight will probably not pick up that skill that gives him x% magic damage reduction because it's an ability against only a small part of his enemies and not worth giving up another ability for it. A ranger on the other hand having still a slot open on his bar just puts it in, thinking it might come in handy one day and he doesn't have to give up anything for it. Do you get what i mean?

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Glitchhiker said:

You aparently haven't read or understood what I said properly. 

I never talked about combat prowess by spamming a mass of abilities. What I'm talking about is flexibility by having alot of abilities to your disposal. A knight will probably not pick up that skill that gives him x% magic damage reduction because it's an ability against only a small part of his enemies and not worth giving up another ability for it. A ranger on the other hand having still a slot open on his bar just puts it in, thinking it might come in handy one day and he doesn't have to give up anything for it. Do you get what i mean?

In general terms, classes with less base trays are also classes with more base survivability and damage and stronger core class skills compared the the weaker more situational skills found on classes like ranger or assassin.

Builds with more trays are, by and large, more reliant on those trays to stay alive and deal damage than builds with stronger core class kits.

I explained this once and you still don't seem to get it so I'll use a practical example.

I play a brigand. I have fought MANY knights.

In order to successfully KILL a similarly geared knight I need to:

Actually hit with a melee stealth opener from behind.

Actually hit with all 3 traps for DOTs

Actually hit with at least 3 hits of my melee chain.

Actually disengage and kite/poke with my bow to give dots time to run down while not getting smashed.

To kill ME the knight needs to:

Hit me with about 5 skills, at least 2 of which are also crowd control.

Rightclick.

Edited by PopeUrban

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@PopeUrban Maybe you're right and the balance to it comes from higher survivability/damage, but it just seems such a vague way of balancing it, so that I don't believe this is the intention behind it.

Admittedly I've barely touched rangers yet. So your example only shows me the bad spot rangers are in right now or you exaggerate to illustrate your point (or both). I mostly take reference from the assasin as a multi tray class and the champion + templar as single-tray. All of these aren't in such a bad spot. Whats noticeable tho, is the small variety/possibilities you have for champion/templar  builds in contrast to the assasin.

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, Glitchhiker said:

@PopeUrban Maybe you're right and the balance to it comes from higher survivability/damage, but it just seems such a vague way of balancing it, so that I don't believe this is the intention behind it.

Admittedly I've barely touched rangers yet. So your example only shows me the bad spot rangers are in right now or you exaggerate to illustrate your point (or both). I mostly take reference from the assasin as a multi tray class and the champion + templar as single-tray. All of these aren't in such a bad spot. Whats noticeable tho, is the small variety/possibilities you have for champion/templar  builds in contrast to the assasin.

The assassin has a higher degree of versatility and build options specifically because the class is built around needing to use that versatility. The templar and knight are built around not needing to use that versatility by virtue of multifunction powers and superior defenses and mitigation.

Again this is not an accident. It is intentional. It is why humans and half elves have bonus slots in stead of more racial powers. It is why you can spend a minor disc slot specifically to pick up extra to that space or a major slot specifically to pick up and extra tray, and why some classes can and other classes can or can not utilize these tray expansion options.

It is why clerics were designed intentionally with more abilities than they can slot.

It is why rangers and assassins have tray swaps literally built in as functions of abilities.

It has been specifically stated multiple times by the developers that tray space is an intentional build crafting resource to manage just like mitigation and damage. Like any other build crafting decision there is a system of costs and benefits at play.

You are not INTENDED to have the same amount of tray space and versatility as someone who has decided to build a character around tray space and versatility because you have not chosen to INVEST the disc slots and race/class choices designed to balance that versatility.

There are certainly discussions to be had about the overall implementation of that balance paradigm, like any other part of character building, but your problem seems to be with the very concept. You need to be aware that that CONCEPT is as much a part of characters as race selection. Rallying against that CONCEPT is akin to demanding all races be functionally identical because it would be "more balanced" than some races having one or zero racial abilities and some races having several.

Edited by PopeUrban

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Alright. You convinced me. Even tho I still see it as incommensurable and because of that very difficult to balance, but i guess in this case "almost" balanced can be good enough aswell.

 

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19 hours ago, NeatGuy said:

We barely get any abilities to begin with compared to other MMOs and you want to take away even more... 

why do so many people intepret my post wrong?

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