@New Players - No Vessel vs Vessel

[Yoink 658]

I see a lot of new players making comments along the lines that they can not compete or even play until they get a crafted vessel. For information's sake here is a side by side view of a level 30 Centaur Champion with no vessel vs a level 30 Centaur Champion with a blue vessel. Same training, same talents selected. No gear. Higher quality vessels are possible ATM but almost all with a vessel will be at this level or lower of quality.

 

 

This works out to a difference of-

38.5 Attack Power

3.9% Final Damage Modifier

1.2% Crit Chance

0.3% Armor Bonus

1.5% Crit Hit Damage

15.7 Support power

1 Stamina

351 Health

 

I have heard people saying that their group of 3 got wiped out by 1 guy because he had a vessel and they didn't. I've heard a lot of people saying they can really feel the difference in combat now that "everyone has vessels and they do not."

I have never heard anyone say that their group of 3 got wiped out by 1 guy because he did 4% more damage than them.

 

I will concede that there are other places to gain advantage. Longer training time, better gear. These will all definitely add up, but it is not just vessels. You can gather all the mats you need in the safety of the temple to craft advanced armor and weapon and you can craft them in an EK right now.

Vessels are awesome but don't feel that you shouldn't be playing if you don't have one yet. The biggest advantage vets have over new players is information. The best thing you can do is ask questions and ask for help. Most here with the information are willing to share it.

Not sure how/where to craft or what the best way/location to harvest is? Ask

Not sure what disciplines or build you should run? Ask

Ask on the forums, in game. Hop into guild's public discord and ask questions.

 

We want you to enjoy the game almost as much as you want to.

Edited January 4, 2019 by Yoink

[Tinnis 7,909]

29 minutes ago, Yoink said:

I see a lot of new players making comments along the lines that they can not compete or even play until they get a crafted vessel. For information's sake here is a side by side view of a level 30 Centaur Champion with no vessel vs a level 30 Centaur Champion with a blue vessel. Same training, same talents selected. No gear. Higher quality vessels are possible ATM but almost all with a vessel will be at this level or lower of quality.

also for reference - what was the required xp on the advanced vessel [you can see it in the player window] compared to a normal requirement of 17.5k?

also higher quality vessels take more effort to level up too! :0

Edited January 4, 2019 by Tinnis

[Yoink 658]

6 minutes ago, Tinnis said:

also for reference - what was the required xp on the advanced vessel [you can see it in the player window] compared to a normal requirement of 17.5k?

also higher quality vessels take more effort to level up too! :0

52,500 XP

[mandalore 2,754]

Vessels matter though.  It’s a permanent bonus to the charcter that doesn’t need to be repaired.  It’s not so big as to be the most defining power option but it’s definitly part of the power curve.  

Mounts, Jewelry, Armor, Weapons, Vessels, training can make for a wide gape in charcter to to charcter stats.  Just wait till they complicate it even more and make disciplines require mats.  The have nots will be at the largest possible disadvantage when they have to compete with larger organized guilds to get even basic rune components. 

As far as information goes, well new players better bring some lube.  In game tooltips don’t explain what the mean.  Healing tooltips are the wrong formula.  The only way to get information is through @Scree Malekai.org website (which is excellent but currently outdated Bc the work load is stupid) or through a guild (which basically every new person doesn’t think they actually need).  

[Dern 31]

I get what you're saying, but keep in mind that stat difference represents more than 10% overall damage increase AND 5% survivability (hp).  That's using a very generic comparison of attack power ratio * crit increase ratio * crithit damage ratio, ( in lieu of more rigorous maths and damage equations).  I would argue that is quite significant.  As mandalore said, "vessels matter".

In the context of a group fight these "small" differences lead to an utter defeat or easy victory when these bonuses are stacked on one side.

It's part of the game, and people should be aware of it.  

[Jah 6,830]

1 minute ago, Dern said:

I get what you're saying, but keep in mind that stat difference represents more than 10% overall damage increase AND 5% survivability (hp).  That's using a very generic comparison of attack power ratio * crit increase ratio * crithit damage ratio, ( in lieu of more rigorous maths and damage equations).  I would argue that is quite significant.  As mandalore said, "vessels matter".

In the context of a group fight these "small" differences lead to an utter defeat or easy victory when these bonuses are stacked on one side.

It's part of the game, and people should be aware of it.  

On the other hand, I think it is safe to say some people overestimate the power gap that vessels provide. It is useful to try to better understand just how big that gap is in reality.

[Yoink 658]

1 hour ago, Dern said:

I get what you're saying, but keep in mind that stat difference represents more than 10% overall damage increase AND 5% survivability (hp).  That's using a very generic comparison of attack power ratio * crit increase ratio * crithit damage ratio, ( in lieu of more rigorous maths and damage equations).  I would argue that is quite significant.  As mandalore said, "vessels matter".

In the context of a group fight these "small" differences lead to an utter defeat or easy victory when these bonuses are stacked on one side.

It's part of the game, and people should be aware of it.  

It's absolutely significant. My goal was not dismiss the advantages you get from vessels but to dissuade new players from not participating because they feel they are just too far behind and to encourage them to get deeper involved in the inner workings of the game. I've been here for 3 years and I'm am still bugging everyone in my guild for info on how this ability works, or how to craft this, or how to harvest that, etc.

There is a lot in this game to know and no real good way to learn it solo. 

[Deernado 115]

I think the difference of vessel at the moment is negligible. 

I think the bigger issue is vets burning down new players and those new players wanting to blame something other then their skill level...

[makkon 1,123]

vessels as it is not so strong, but new players mostly do not count whole things.

dirty calculation overall basic vs geared player (compared to def and attack stats):

• vessel gives about +4-5 flat basic damage (from AP) + 4% to damage + some crit chance and HP (300+)
• advanced weapon gives +60-90 flat basic damage + 3-8 flat basic damage (AP bonus) + some crit/crit damage
• armor gives avg 10-15% flat mitigation + HP (900+)
• accessory can give 60-90 AP (middle ones), so +6-9 flat damage
• right and good class to 30 lvl, promo/talents
• right and good disciplines

total is minimum 20-30+76-117 (=96-147) basic damage + decent crit chance and damage + 8-10k HP + over 20% mitigation just from gear and lvl 30 vs

20-30 basic damage, basic crit, 5-6k HP and 10% mitigation.

 

lets take a look at typical opener https://malekai.org/powers/ambush-assassin

181-272 + 227% weapon damage

 

basic:  226-340 damage per ambush plus some miltupliers

advanced: 398-601 damage per ambush plus multipliers

almost x2 difference just with flat damage from skills. plus crit, plus bonus damage, plus blablabla

 

[veeshan 624]

then you got things like armor, my armor provides me with an extra 5300 odd HP along with 17-21 resistance.
Vessels do so little compared some good equipment

My 2h sword for my paladin is 95-135dmg, 80 support power, 1% crit chance and 5% crit amount. (After the advance weapon dmg nerf too)

My paladin is currently sitting on 11.5k HP, 960 support power and 400 or something Attack power and he still has a basic vessel

Edited January 5, 2019 by veeshan

[mythx 983]

I thought Necromancy was going to be something fun like raise some undeads and create some AI mobs to guard you some undead magic in a fantasy setting. But instead we have a balance nightmare for characters with a small dev. team who struggle to deliver a quality mmo game concerning combat.

It`s a little off topic, but cooldowns need be considered as well - nerf dps and create a more interactive power system so you feel more enganged in combat and that include all classes with slow boring cool downs on powers.  

[yianni 384]

49 minutes ago, Marth said:

It already takes long enough to kill people.

simple solution to that is remove C/Q skill. i've thought about making a post about that, but i dont think anyone would be for it

[mandalore 2,754]

14 minutes ago, Marth said:

More barriers less heals would be my suggestion. 

That would remove healers entirely.  Sieges would be short indeed. 

[yianni 384]

1 hour ago, Marth said:

More barriers less heals would be my suggestion. 

There's plenty of barriers in the game right now. With advanced weapons damage toned down fights will take even longer. Because less damage is being done and you can out heal it easily. Since heals don't used weapon damage

[mandalore 2,754]

7 minutes ago, yianni said:

There's plenty of barriers in the game right now. With advanced weapons damage toned down fights will take even longer. Because less damage is being done and you can out heal it easily. Since heals don't used weapon damage

Could that be because they want fights to last longer and there to be less between the haves and have nots?  Support Power, not weapon dmg determines how healing works but that still scale so gear does make it last longer.  Just because you don't want to heal doesn't mean they should remove it or tone it down. 

[yianni 384]

44 minutes ago, mandalore said:

Could that be because they want fights to last longer and there to be less between the haves and have nots?  Support Power, not weapon dmg determines how healing works but that still scale so gear does make it last longer.  Just because you don't want to heal doesn't mean they should remove it or tone it down. 

i didnt say anything about toning down heals, did i?

[mythx 983]

I`m sad that all the old pvp focused guilds in SB are gone or inactive to assist Artcraft to get a less painful pvp design which actually make sense in Q4 of 2019 soft - launch of Crowfall. It`s a good reason we had class advocates in old SB - it was to improve the whole game experience which most did a very good job which was not paid to support the larger picture to have fun in strategic war game.

And to tell the truth it`s end game where the game start in Crowfall and in Shadowbane with castle sieges, spec. characters, meta game and all that. So the whole vessel system is just a traditional mmo time sink to reach the end game until a new meta occure in a campaign world. And we need to power level a new character, new flavour of the day related to large scale warfare and tactics. But why complicate end game character at lv 30 - we have like 6 character slots for meta gaming and in depth strategies concerning group combat and large scale battles? 

To tell the truth I`m really custard worried guys - I don`t know how to solve this predicament Necromancy. Is`t possible to change it completely back to dark magic summoning magic so we can create undeads to guard our cities instead like AI.

What we dont need is 4 layers of experience curve to reach the end game. And lv. 30 is fine in a pvp focused game like Crowfall, especially how item and crafting and the power curve is balanced around a 50 player guild design system. It`s not even included for new players until recently when they created major crafting runes to hurry up the passive skill progression tree related to crafting end game items with rare resource system and harvesting. 

Edited January 8, 2019 by mythx

[mandalore 2,754]

As an old sb player, I wouldn’t trust most of the sb community with their own continence.  

You want entire systems that are in CF gone.  I hate to tell you but that’s not going to happen.  Vessels and necromancy are part of the core of CF.  Vessels take a custard ton of work and you will need to make better ones and level them as your ability to farm and make them increases.  You need a foreman and stone  motherloads  specialized farmers (in a group) to get the minerals.  You need a harvester to get the body parts from the graves of the race you want.  You need an alchemist and a necromancer to make the vessel.  Vessels aren’t meant to be game breaking but it’s a permanent boost to the charcter and the bonus stats get better and better as you make better quality ones.  This is a good system.  It forces us to work together, it forces us to farm in the world.  Those are essential to the life of the game.  

 

I can also assure you that you’re not going to have 6 wildly different characters on your account.  It will be nigh impossible to keep multiple sets of armor and weapons  on multiple characters.  That’s not even counting jewelry, cloaks, horseshoes and vessels once they add all the extra body part functions.  Your skills won’t support it either as the further you get the more narrow the applicable skills.  You need to accept that poorly made socks now; CF isn’t SB.  You will not have half a dozen alts to counter every scenario you might encounter.  Maybe years after launch people will have stockpiles like the did on late stage mourning or entropy but don’t count on that poorly made socks at the start. 

[mythx 983]

Yes the whole Necromancy system need changes which has nothing to do with character advancement and additional stats and soft caps. I dislike the whole EvE online concept related to passive training and u are only suppose to have one character type of approach in Crowfall. But we have talent level up to lv. 30 recently - why complicate it with Necromancy? All who play EvE knows that Crowfall used the comparison to reach out to EvE players 4 years ago, but it`s not a sci-fi game, nor do it have the economy like EvE with high sec. to low security space 0.0. and you have huge hoard guilds with 1000 of members.

And where is Xemise? And educated guess he is gone, because Todd have never played a moba game like league of legends or Dota 2. 

I need some sleep, back tomorrow, night nite, and thanks for discussion. 

 

Edited January 8, 2019 by mythx

[mandalore 2,754]

1 minute ago, mythx said:

And where is Xemise? And educated guess he is gone, because Todd have never played a moba game like league of legends or Dota 2. 

 

Xemise, Q and Chet have little to no interest in CF.  Last I heard Xemise is popping out kids and busy irl.