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jtoddcoleman

02/19/2015 - Physics + Double Archetype Drop!

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Next Tuesday at 2:00pm CST, we'll be doing a twitch stream of the creation of the Guinecean Duelist character model! Our friends and partners at OMNOM workshop (who we rely on heavily to help us sculpt our game characters) have graciously offered to allow everyone a chance to see how the sausage is made.  In this case, the "sausage" is a talking guinea pig with the saber and a flintlock pistol.
 
Todd
ACE

 

 

Beta character: Guinecean Duelist named Sausage.


b7xcsz.jpg

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suggestion on the deliberate Friendly Fire deterrence, reduce/remove decay/ loot drops/ travel return times/ etc when you die exclusively from FF?

I probably have a misconception of campaign player counts (me thinks they will be fairly small, community focused and whatnot?), but communities/sub-communities should be able to police things from there, no?

 

Agree, let players police their own faction, betrayal is part of the game after all, if someone go mad and start to kill their mates let the same mates deal with it.

Is also important during a war, you have to trust your mercenaries, but they can kill you if the enemy pay more. :)

Edited by kdchan

Archduchess Alice

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May have already been said -- (at work, so I haven't read all 8 pages) -- but reminds me of WarHammer's Witch Hunter.

 

Oh, aren't you the cute little cuddly ... OW!  He shot me!


sbu_lom_crowfall.png


In Soviet Russia Crowfall, deer hunts YOU!

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Well, if a player join a team and use fredly fire to kill his own faction, let the players deal with him not? Just use the flag system + debuff, mean if you kill your own faction you turn RED and everyone know your are a traitor and add in the KOS list.

 

Please leave friedly fire in along with collisions and phisycs, is a important feature to promote correct formations and tactics and usefull to avoid zergs, spam of aoes and skills.

 

 

I like it but... I'll give you an example from Mortal Online. There is no factions, but in any protected NPC city, even the starter city of "Tindrem" people grief using the flagging system:

 

- 5 kills you go Red. Anything below that threshold you remain Blue

 

- If you are "Blue" and initiate an attack on anyone, you go "Grey" for two minutes. This flags you as a neutral agressor and allows anyone to attack you without penalty.

 

What happens in Mortal, is griefers jump in front of the "noobs" hacking away at mobiles. The "Blue Noob" thus turns grey. The Griefer then dispatches the noob in quick order, taking all of his gear and everything he has farmed for with no penalty whatsoever. The griefer does this over and over.

 

My disconnect is, I just do not really understand the reason for eliminating FF. Whether it is "Gods Reach" (3 faction) or "The Infected" (possibly 12 faction), there will be, to my understanding, massive battles between Faction mates in numbers that would dwarf the largest of guilds. Hypothetically, If you have two of the three factions fighting each other in a massive battle say 2-300 per side, why the hell would you not enable friendly fire?

 

The only reason to disable it would be if the fighting was limited to randomly generated 10 v 10 MOBA style conflicts or some such nonsense. Conflicts where a "mole" or "griefer" could skew the outcome of a fairly arranged battle. I hope I'm wrong on that one.

 

Some rules sets (like the infected worlds, which are Faction based) divide players automatically into teams. We have to make sure that players can't join teams specifically to take advantage of friendly fire to grief their own "teammates."

 

This implies that "teams" are generated through a queuing system. I could be wrong.


.

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From the FAQ:

 

13. How can players take advantage of this system (shield walls, or tactical formations)?

 

We anticipate the tank types to have positional control on the battlefields, they will create formations or walls to protect whom or whatever is behind them. In classic MMO’s the tanks have protected the more lightly armored members of the group, in Crowfall they may also be protecting a siege weapon or entrance to a tower. Of course the enemy may have specialists who dig through the terrain under those tanks to get to the targets.

 

16. How does this system work with the destructible environment system?

 

If walls crash down on you, you will take damage. If the ground opens up below you will fall. The environment can be just as lethal as an enemy player.

 

13. You'll note it says specialists can dig through terrain.   You will also note that the Guinecean duelist is a specialist.   I'm guessing that the Guinecean (and potentially other races that share burrowing characteristics) can burrow.   What if your not a burrowing race (or class if specialist is actually a class), your still stuck?

 

16.  I'm assuming this is during a siege.   I stand by the point that if walls/buildings can be destroyed outside of sieges, there is absolutely 0 point in building them as they will be destroyed the moment you turn your back even one second.   completely undefendable.

 

 

I have read the FAQ,   I'm really excited by the potential of both the physics and voxel systems.  I just hope that the devs are considering the ways such systems can be completely abusable (they have mentioned they are away of potential FF concerns so I suspect they are) and taking steps to insure that it cant be abused.   If it can be abused, it will be.

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First off, cool update.  The ranged archetypes are starting to appears, though I'm guessing the duelist is more half ranged/half melee like a Warhammer witch hunter or a GW2 mesmer with sword+pistol.  Still unconfirmed whether each archetype can choose different weapons/armors, or did I miss that?  

 

Second, the physics FAQ.  Great info there.  Friendly fire, environmental usage, etc are fantastic components for turning MMO PvP into a real contest of skill.  It brings more "real life" into consideration, and we all know that strategy is far more important than personal strength.  Strength < strategy < technique < principle.  There is the potential here to really force players into improving their PvP awareness.  Collisions, body blocking, falling, friendly fire, etc will require groups and individuals to plan in advance.  

 

Think about a legionnaire swinging a giant axe on the battlefield.  Now think of a zerg of them.  A few knights with shields raised in an active block capacity (which may/may not exist in the game) can bring that group to a halt while a group of stalkers lobs arrows over top.  But that assumes stalkers will have "lob arrow" abilities, because if you can form a shield wall and not shoot anything over top.... that would kinda suck.  Likewise, the legionnaires swinging wildly will likely catch each other in the melee arc.  Zerging down a single opponent should be a bit more difficult in this regard.  Then again, having 4 people initiate powerful slash-like attacks against a single opponent in the real world would also suffer from issues.  This is why multiple opponents kick other people on the ground (thrusts with the feet) from in close and keep a few feet of distance while standing up.  Multiple opponents letting loose multiple attacks from 1m away or closer is a recipe for disaster.  This punishing of the zerg is a great start to getting MMO PvP back on the right track.  

 

And for those not interested, the 3 faction campaigns will let players engage in "normal" PvP like they're used to.... minus world interactions.  

 

Which leads to the third point, the sheer volume of calculations and computing requirements for all these physics calculations.  It would be one thing if you enabled collision detection and didn't allow any pass-through, but adding mass checks and gravity and the like are extra calculations adding more stress on an already heavily relied upon CPU (based on this week's Voxel Farm posts).  Now you're not only adding stress to the CPU through an incredible amount of voxel manipulation across scores of clients, but also initiating physics checks across scores of clients at the same time to see if one object is heavier than another, what their Z-axis is (easier to push larger opponents back when you are shorter and come in at an upward trajectory), checking bounding boxes of all nearby objects (not just players) for interaction with player abilities, like a legionnaire swinging that massive axe in a circle next to 3 players, a church, and a mailbox, and a lot more.  

 

Is implementing all those calculations on the server possible?  If a typical MMO checks bounding box for characters (collision) and then distance to ensure skills hit, it seems like what you're trying to do is add 5-10x as many lookups and checks.  Are the servers going to be beefy enough to handle hundreds of players with 5-10x the amount of typical PlayerObject events firing?  Or is this one of those things that won't be an issue because campaigns likely won't be that large?  I mean, we honestly don't know what world sizes are not campaign sizes, objectives, etc... so it's entirely possible that a lot of worlds are 30-50 v 30-50.  I hope not, but it's possible!  I ask because if you don't trust the server to handle all those calculations, you know you can't trust the client to deal with physics, so I'm not sure how you'd best tackle the number of extra computations involved.  

 

Are you guys using PAL (physics abstraction layer) or a PAL-like system to handle all these different engines?  

 

The physics ideas are very cool, ideas I welcome with open arms.  Guys like me who love strategy, combat, martial arts, etc love any opportunity we can get to apply RL tactics to IG PvP.  The more the better IMO :D


Gaunsaku

Elder, Lords of the Dead

lotd.org

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I should also say that I'm all for friendly fire and physics-based "traps" for allies and enemies, alike.  The world is a dangerous place, more dangerous thanks to the Hunger.  The more overall awareness that can be forced into players, the better they're become at PvP.  

 

A nice by-product is that enough active awareness in-game can (and does) translate into more active awareness IRL.  CF could be a study not only in group combat simulation but also in increasing societal attention-span lengthening :)

 

(would've edited the previous post but it was already suffering from TL;DR syndrome) :(

Edited by gaunsaku

Gaunsaku

Elder, Lords of the Dead

lotd.org

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I like it but... I'll give you an example from Mortal Online. There is no factions, but in any protected NPC city, even the starter city of "Tindrem" people grief using the flagging system:

 

- 5 kills you go Red. Anything below that threshold you remain Blue

 

- If you are "Blue" and initiate an attack on anyone, you go "Grey" for two minutes. This flags you as a neutral agressor and allows anyone to attack you without penalty.

 

What happens in Mortal, is griefers jump in front of the "noobs" hacking away at mobiles. The "Blue Noob" thus turns grey. The Griefer then dispatches the noob in quick order, taking all of his gear and everything he has farmed for with no penalty whatsoever. The griefer does this over and over.

 

My disconnect is, I just do not really understand the reason for eliminating FF. Whether it is "Gods Reach" (3 faction) or "The Infected" (possibly 12 faction), there will be, to my understanding, massive battles between Faction mates in numbers that would dwarf the largest of guilds. Hypothetically, If you have two of the three factions fighting each other in a massive battle say 2-300 per side, why the hell would you not enable friendly fire?

 

The only reason to disable it would be if the fighting was limited to randomly generated 10 v 10 MOBA style conflicts or some such nonsense. Conflicts where a "mole" or "griefer" could skew the outcome of a fairly arranged battle. I hope I'm wrong on that one.

 

Some rules sets (like the infected worlds, which are Faction based) divide players automatically into teams. We have to make sure that players can't join teams specifically to take advantage of friendly fire to grief their own "teammates."

 

This implies that "teams" are generated through a queuing system. I could be wrong.

 

Is because we need an alignment system BLUE, neutral, RED to minimize this issue (ala UO).

 

Hitting your own faction 1 time, for mistake, turn you rogue for 3-4 seconds, if you stop to attack you back neutral, but if you hit your mates more time the rogue time increase more and more, mean you are indeed a traitor and a murderer and can get killed by other players without any penalty.

 

Yes a debuff can work too with the same principle, in the end don't matter what system you can use, just let players police the game.

 

FF is a very important feature, betrayal, antizerg and anti skill spamfest feature.

Edited by kdchan

Archduchess Alice

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We also added a new screenshot to the media page on the website! It'll be hard for this Frostweaver to get out of this one. 

 

Crowfall_FWGameplay1.jpg

She needs to call in her Guinea back up imo


Edgy

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Hopefully he can take his glove off and slap/challenge whomever he wishes to duel with the glove.

"Sun-down or Sun-up my friend"

"Sword Or Pistol"

Biblical


Edgy

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13. You'll note it says specialists can dig through terrain.   You will also note that the Guinecean duelist is a specialist.   I'm guessing that the Guinecean (and potentially other races that share burrowing characteristics) can burrow.   What if your not a burrowing race (or class if specialist is actually a class), your still stuck?

 

16.  I'm assuming this is during a siege.   I stand by the point that if walls/buildings can be destroyed outside of sieges, there is absolutely 0 point in building them as they will be destroyed the moment you turn your back even one second.   completely undefendable.

 

 

I have read the FAQ,   I'm really excited by the potential of both the physics and voxel systems.  I just hope that the devs are considering the ways such systems can be completely abusable (they have mentioned they are away of potential FF concerns so I suspect they are) and taking steps to insure that it cant be abused.   If it can be abused, it will be.

13. Also notice that my people have invented gunpowder. Have you brought a small bomb? I'd keep one on hand, if they exist. Also, you will have Stoneborn and possibly half-giants. What kind of wall are we talking? Interior, exterior, defensible? Stone, plaster and lath, brick, mud-daub? Remember the three little pigs.

 

16. OK, let's assume during a siege. Further let's assume we're talking about the outer shield wall. First, why wouldn't you bring a sapper along if you were planning to lay siege to a fortified structure. That's a fault in tactics and the Centaur deserves to block you with his butt. Second, are you assuming you'll only be able to destroy things when the "switch is thrown" and sieges are active? I'm not. I do think you'll be able to take out a wall any time, any where if you have the correct equipment.


I'm in this for the Experience, not the XP.

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I hope the physics won't be made too overwhelming in terms of restricting smooth player movement. I was really hoping this game would have the same smooth and responsive player movement that Darkfall Online had.

Edited by Kaminaxus

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