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jtoddcoleman

02/19/2015 - Physics + Double Archetype Drop!

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Yeah, I can dig it if they don't overly "cutetize" them in-game. From their lore they seem to fill the niche that Gnomes would fill in other settings.

Except for the backstory of Gaea giving them higher sentience. Tends to be different than gnome backstories. I'm all for new species, personally. Between Elken and guinecea I'm happy. Still hopeful the last will be Minos!

Edited by mctan

Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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Aaaah... Always had soft spot both for elves and all things north. Frostfire, the looks, the works... Very appealing character.

 

Maybe the elven frostweavers prefer to live in the subterranean?   ^_^

 

Maybe. Maybe they are even nocturnal.

 

With the exception of their cartoonishly elongated ears, I'd say the Elves are shaping up nicely. 

 

Yes. Please, oh pretty please do something to those wings of theirs. Because it's not ears, it's wings. I mean elves will be elves, but this is a little too much.

 

Xaluara's cruel curiosity reminds one of a cat, playing with her food. Michael Moorcock's Melniboneans have been described similarly- decadent, cruel and with an alien, almost feline personality.

 

You captured this one pretty well. Indeed they are.

 

 

I have questions, however! Are these elves the heirs of some ancient empire? Do they predate the birth of humanity? Who is the Prince with Four Faces? Which gods do the Elves align with? So far, it would appear that they are almost whimsical in their motivations- doing whatever pleases them best.

 

We have questions. ;) And since Soulein asked them I think now it's about waiting... :)

 

 

Love the Duelist. Somehow he doesn't look ridiculous, rather reminding nobles of Musketeer era ('Guinecea' speaks for itself). After Templar (and, perhaps, Forgemaster) it is only 'good' archetype. And the only archetype that was not touched by grim streak other archetypes have. Courage, sincerity, loyalty - real hero. *chuckle* I admire your sense of humor, though.

 

Also people so excited about physics... And I expected something like that. Though kicking someone off a cliff is rather appealing. I wonder if you'll make spells that can move other characters and throw them around. Off the cliff or anything else. Bridge. Ridge. Whatever.

 

P.S. Looks like Confessor and Frostweaver are exactly same roles...

Edited by rolan storm

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First off, cool update.  The ranged archetypes are starting to appears, though I'm guessing the duelist is more half ranged/half melee like a Warhammer witch hunter or a GW2 mesmer with sword+pistol.  Still unconfirmed whether each archetype can choose different weapons/armors, or did I miss that?  

 

Second, the physics FAQ.  Great info there.  Friendly fire, environmental usage, etc are fantastic components for turning MMO PvP into a real contest of skill.  It brings more "real life" into consideration, and we all know that strategy is far more important than personal strength.  Strength < strategy < technique < principle.  There is the potential here to really force players into improving their PvP awareness.  Collisions, body blocking, falling, friendly fire, etc will require groups and individuals to plan in advance.  

 

Think about a legionnaire swinging a giant axe on the battlefield.  Now think of a zerg of them.  A few knights with shields raised in an active block capacity (which may/may not exist in the game) can bring that group to a halt while a group of stalkers lobs arrows over top.  But that assumes stalkers will have "lob arrow" abilities, because if you can form a shield wall and not shoot anything over top.... that would kinda suck.  Likewise, the legionnaires swinging wildly will likely catch each other in the melee arc.  Zerging down a single opponent should be a bit more difficult in this regard.  Then again, having 4 people initiate powerful slash-like attacks against a single opponent in the real world would also suffer from issues.  This is why multiple opponents kick other people on the ground (thrusts with the feet) from in close and keep a few feet of distance while standing up.  Multiple opponents letting loose multiple attacks from 1m away or closer is a recipe for disaster.  This punishing of the zerg is a great start to getting MMO PvP back on the right track.  

 

And for those not interested, the 3 faction campaigns will let players engage in "normal" PvP like they're used to.... minus world interactions.  

 

Which leads to the third point, the sheer volume of calculations and computing requirements for all these physics calculations.  It would be one thing if you enabled collision detection and didn't allow any pass-through, but adding mass checks and gravity and the like are extra calculations adding more stress on an already heavily relied upon CPU (based on this week's Voxel Farm posts).  Now you're not only adding stress to the CPU through an incredible amount of voxel manipulation across scores of clients, but also initiating physics checks across scores of clients at the same time to see if one object is heavier than another, what their Z-axis is (easier to push larger opponents back when you are shorter and come in at an upward trajectory), checking bounding boxes of all nearby objects (not just players) for interaction with player abilities, like a legionnaire swinging that massive axe in a circle next to 3 players, a church, and a mailbox, and a lot more.  

 

Is implementing all those calculations on the server possible?  If a typical MMO checks bounding box for characters (collision) and then distance to ensure skills hit, it seems like what you're trying to do is add 5-10x as many lookups and checks.  Are the servers going to be beefy enough to handle hundreds of players with 5-10x the amount of typical PlayerObject events firing?  Or is this one of those things that won't be an issue because campaigns likely won't be that large?  I mean, we honestly don't know what world sizes are not campaign sizes, objectives, etc... so it's entirely possible that a lot of worlds are 30-50 v 30-50.  I hope not, but it's possible!  I ask because if you don't trust the server to handle all those calculations, you know you can't trust the client to deal with physics, so I'm not sure how you'd best tackle the number of extra computations involved.  

 

Are you guys using PAL (physics abstraction layer) or a PAL-like system to handle all these different engines?  

 

The physics ideas are very cool, ideas I welcome with open arms.  Guys like me who love strategy, combat, martial arts, etc love any opportunity we can get to apply RL tactics to IG PvP.  The more the better IMO :D

TLDNR ~ This is going to require an insane amount of processing if it is going to support hundreds of players + siege + destructable environments.  Can this be done on a large scale?  TBD...

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I call for the first elf punting contest!!


Know me and fear me. My embrace is for all and is patient but sure. The dead can always find you. My hand is everywhere - there is no door I cannot pass, nor guardian who can withstand me.

694a6f04-03a1-4af3-8e11-ddd1baa87348.jpg

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Think about a legionnaire swinging a giant axe on the battlefield.  Now think of a zerg of them.  A few knights with shields raised in an active block capacity (which may/may not exist in the game) can bring that group to a halt while a group of stalkers lobs arrows over top. 

Maybe on specific spells or abilities there could be a toggle function to effectively lob a projectile, whether that be an arrow or fireball for example. Or they could make it more skill orientated by the longer X button is held the more power behind Y ability. Would prefer the prier though.

 

The more I read from Crowfall the more I'm getting really excited. This will be the first game (or anything actually) I will have ever backed on Kickstarter, also convinced 3 friends of mine to do the same. Friendly fire seems like it could make this a lot more fun if handled well, looking forward to Tuesday.

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The guinea pigs are painfully adorable, but in a believable way, not in an overly-cartoony-compared-to-the-other-races way like some other games do with their furballs. Good job on them. It's too bad I don't play small races, or they would be very tempting. I hope they are great tunnelers!

 

You devs should enable different pelt styles in the appearance customization section of char creation for the Guineceans, so that they can look like honey badgers. That would please the internet very much. It will also invite a lot of really bad jokes, but as we can see from this thread already, it's unavoidable. Guineceans will be mocked, they will be punted, they will at times get their revenge, and they will be very beloved by a small subset of the population. That's how it should be.

 

The other race/arch is predictably an Ice elf mage, which is not a surprise because we've already seen the female before. But, it's nice to have another race other than humans that isn't gender locked. However, the male Frostweaver's eyes are too close together in the concept piece, it's bugging me. Hopefully his 3d model will have that bit fixed.

 

I'm still hoping that there will be at least one human sized or larger beast race that can also be female, like cat people or something. If not, oh well, it's obviously not a necessity but it would definitely be appreciated. Still a couple more days till full reveal, holding out hope!

 

As for all the rest, drool. I'm very excited about the potential for non-zerg large scale pvp with environmental destruction/hazards, physics, and active combat, all while also having the persistent characters and worlds(at least EK) of an mmo; I've never experienced something like that before. I guess it's because it's never been done, to my knowledge. It will require a lot of work, a lot of testing, and a whole lot of fine tuning, but if it all comes together this game will certainly be... *puts on sunglasses*... a real game changer.

Edited by emralled

peastravaganza%20dos_zps4q178jpn.png

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"Courage and Sacrifice"

I stopped reading there in the Guinecean but I already think that's my character.

So epic... maybe I should keep reading xD

 

Edit: wow after reading the lore piece it's also the kind of character you love in series or movies and you break in tears when he dies :_D

Edited by innadril

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"Items in your inventory will not contribute to your overall mass, however."

 

Hmm, not sure how I feel about that.  Back in UO when people carried items beyond a certain weight limit, their movement would be affected to the point where they could not move at all.  I believe (though I am not sure) that encumbrance played a similar role in Shadowbane.

 

I hope they clarify this.  I think it strange they would use real physics and not count encumbrance as including inventory.

 

EDIT: maybe I misconstrue and what they mean about mass pertains only to the mechanic they describe about being pushed around.  This would be distinct from encumbrance checks.

Edited by cemya

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In the physics FAQ, you talk enthusiastically about formations, implying tactics and strategy and whatnot.  I'm going to share some things about this that I have come to learn in the past 17 years.
 

Battlefield strategies or tactics, in the conventional sense such as real world inspired manoeuvres like formations and flanking, dont work.  This is mainly due to the nature of magic.  We take inspiration from the real world when we send archers up on the walls or lead a group to the high ground and hold a hill, but more often than not, it's very ill advised.

 

A quick recent example would be from Darkfall.

 

You would think taking the walls of a city to shoot down on people approaching is a standard defensive tactic.  With magic, it isn't.

Some spells can whip people off the walls or knock them up/back/down.   Some spells allow the attackers to get up quickly and get off again.
 

You'd think holding a hill to get elevated terrain advantage during a siege or large group fight would give you advantages.  With magic, it doesn't. 
The elevated terrain beneath you acts as a canvas for splash damage and increases enemy AOE effectiveness.  The same spells from the wall scenario apply and will undo your defensive positioning.  Attackers often just wait at the bottom and 'pull' people down, killing the defenders over time.

 

 

As for formations...  Well I can't think of a single time in history where there were any benefits of being grouped up in a formation of some sort.  AOE's will melt you and it will take fewer people to do it.

The only time I've ever needed people to huddle up was to make use of group AOE heals.  After that it's "SEPARATE ASAP"

 

 

 

Of course it depends on the gameplay of Crowfall.  But please take that into consideration when designing spells and anything else relevant.  Be realistic in the gaming sense.   Trying to emulate real-world things like that is a romantic idea, but this is the very opposite of the real world.

When you're designing your spells and possible scenarios applying to battlefield strategies and pvp tactics, try to imagine a Teamspeak filled with hardcore competitive gamers with all of the spells available to them and lots of experience with certain tricks that players can learn (combining the physics and spells etc).  Try to imagine what it'd actually play out like.

Holding walls and standing in formations just doesn't work in competitive PvP environments, so if you really want elements of that to exist, you're going to have to come up with ways to inspire it, as opposed to ways of forcing it.

I suppose if I'm to try and be helpful and offer any solutions, I guess I'd start with heavily limiting the amount of AOE that players can do.
Perhaps some cross-buff that applies itself to allies who are almost adjacent to you, on mount and moving at charge speed?  Some type of natural buff of damage absorption or deflection, but is only really considered useful when there's more of you.
Hell... perhaps you could even code a buff that applies based on the formation the players are running. 

Like if the players were charging in a wedge formation, the server would detect this and most of the buff is applied to the people at the front.
But stuff like that is kinda artificial and anything that feels artificial will detract from gameplay.

Edited by KoKane

It's called Crowfall because calling it "The Hunger Game of Thrones" would have raised too many issues.

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In the physics FAQ, you talk enthusiastically about formations, implying tactics and strategy and whatnot.  I'm going to share some things about this that I have come to learn in the past 17 years.

 

Battlefield strategies or tactics, in the conventional sense such as real world inspired manoeuvres like formations and flanking, dont work.  This is mainly due to the nature of magic.  We take inspiration from the real world when we send archers up on the walls or lead a group to the high ground and hold a hill, but more often than not, it's very ill advised.

 

Good points.  Magic in PVP games tends to end up behaving like bombs and grenades.  The game systems compensate for this by adding barrier type magic defenses, etc.  But against AOE there is no reason to bunch up, hence forming a "wall" of people to block is going to be problematic.

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<cool stuff about magic in PvP and how it messes with RL strategy stuff>

 

Yes!  Very much on par.  Having spellcasters with such power really wrecks traditional battlefield tactics.  Imagine having 25 Saruman on a battlefield, the kind of havoc that would occur.  

 

But then again, depending on how far reach the Voxel Farm tech goes, spellcasting may be extremely limited in this game for the sake of the environment. Imagine if you can use arrows and swords to damage walls, bridges, etc, how cool that would be.  Then imagine launching a fireball into a tower wall or bridge support.  Assuming it's more powerful than a breath of hot air, the environment should be heavily damaged.  Or, because it is magic, we can be like GW2 and pretend that meteor swarming coming down at terminal velocity only takes away 5% of your health.  

 

Magic does change everything and needs to be treated with care.  Interestingly enough, the majority of archetypes are physical damage based.  The ones that exert magical damage are not the all-powerful archmages we're used to in ever other MMO, most likely because such power cannot exist in a real, destructible world.  

 

Very good points, KoKane :)


Gaunsaku

Elder, Lords of the Dead

lotd.org

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They are Guinea Pigs, Not Hamster, Rats or Badgers.

Let's officially call them GPigs. :D

So adorable!

Edited by jessíka

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I just wanna say, kudos to ArtCraft for wanting to include all the little girls who want to play as Elsa, and also all the over 40 over-stressed men/women out there who are furries.  This game truly caters to all.

 

 

24029440_1.jpg

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