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Staff

Vessel solution

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Vessels have durability currently but they dont break and i think the devs are kinda wondering how to make vessels finite without angering players, i certainly dont wanna have my vessel break mid fight and get sent to the character creation screen, or part ways with Rudolph the Depressed after a week, but i also dont want the necro econ to eventually die when everyone is running around in legendary vessels. So how about a campaign limit on vessels, or a campaign point system with longer campaigns being worth more points and when the vessel hits its point cap that vessel breaks when the campaign is over. An example of this would be

1 month: 5 points

6 months: 20 points

Legendary vessel: 20 points

Common vessel: 5 points

So a common vessel would last a month while a stronger vessel would last up to half a year, and while we're talking about necromancy its far too easy to get a legendary vessel at this point, about 3 campaigns into joining the game and i already have half the parts for a legendary vessel. It doesnt take nearly enough time to get epic and legendary vessels.


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28 minutes ago, Staff said:

Vessels have durability currently

No they don't. Vessels currently last forever. You'll switch to newer vessels in order to upgrade quality and/or try out new specs when we become unable to remove discipline runes from vessels.


Hi, I'm moneda.

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17 minutes ago, moneda said:

No they don't. Vessels currently last forever. You'll switch to newer vessels in order to upgrade quality and/or try out new specs when we become unable to remove discipline runes from vessels.

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11 minutes ago, moneda said:

The vessel items have durability stats, as once vessels were going to degrade like armor, but once used to create a character it does not degrade.

Yea, just don't get killed with them in item form, a couple dozen times, and your all good. :)

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I really don't understand how vessels can be infinitely useable.  They have to have some kind of expiration or limited use, or what's the point of Necromancy?  I don't see how that can be balanced. One can argue that, vessels will want to be upgraded, but how is that any different than any other type of equipment?

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They don’t break.  They are a permanent boosts to that character. T


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

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45 minutes ago, mandalore said:

They don’t break.  They are a permanent boosts to that character. T

I don't understand that design decision at all.  What goes into a vessel is the same as any other skill.  Why are Necromancy outputs essentially "permanent" whereas every other craft has outputs with limited duration or use?

From a design perspective, it makes no sense at all.  

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4 minutes ago, excellz said:

I don't understand that design decision at all.  What goes into a vessel is the same as any other skill.  Why are Necromancy outputs essentially "permanent" whereas every other craft has outputs with limited duration or use?

From a design perspective, it makes no sense at all.  

 

8 hours ago, moneda said:

You'll switch to newer vessels in order to upgrade quality and/or try out new specs when we become unable to remove discipline runes from vessels.

-_- 


Hi, I'm moneda.

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7 minutes ago, excellz said:

I don't understand that design decision at all.  What goes into a vessel is the same as any other skill.  Why are Necromancy outputs essentially "permanent" whereas every other craft has outputs with limited duration or use?

From a design perspective, it makes no sense at all.  

There will always be better vessels.  It’s still something you will constantly be upgrading.  They are by far the most complicated item to make. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

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20 minutes ago, excellz said:

I don't understand that design decision at all.  What goes into a vessel is the same as any other skill.  Why are Necromancy outputs essentially "permanent" whereas every other craft has outputs with limited duration or use?

From a design perspective, it makes no sense at all.  

Basically part and parcel to the decision to have leveling.  The concept of adding more RPG elements to the game where you get buy-in with a particular toon.  I presume they did so because they felt like people would be more interested if they were playing the same vessel, as its appearance can be customized and it can participate in unique adventures and the player develop some sort of bond with it over time, leading to buy-in.  I think it's a mistake and a transgression on the easy come, easy go mechanics that would ultimately be necessary to differentiate this game.  At this point, I'm blaming these design aspects on the forum whiners, but I suspect that's a bit too convenient.

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Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, moneda said:
8 hours ago, moneda said:

You'll switch to newer vessels in order to upgrade quality and/or try out new specs when we become unable to remove discipline runes from vessels.

 

That's not really invalidating my point.  Every other crafted item loses durability or has limited uses and is a design choice enforced by the system.  Vessels do not and can be used in perpetuity.  That players may want to upgrade them is an option / choice and no different than items, which players will also want to upgrade and try different specs / stats with. 

26 minutes ago, mandalore said:

There will always be better vessels.  It’s still something you will constantly be upgrading.  They are by far the most complicated item to make. 

Again, not invalidating the point nor is that factually true.  There will be a "best" vessel (legendary), just as there will be "best" weapons (legendary).  And no, they are not the most complicated to make.  They need harvested goods, PvE items, and stuff from 1 other crafting tree.  How is that any different than armor which requires outputs from 3 other crafting trees and a ton of harvested goods?  

10 minutes ago, Pycet said:

Basically part and parcel to the decision to have leveling... At this point, I'm blaming these design aspects on the forum whiners, but I suspect that's a bit too convenient.

Yes.  I think you are right.  Not like leveling and sacrificing will be hard.

Edited by excellz

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Lol vessels and Leveling are 100% them, they’ve never asked dev partners or anybody about them.  

Vessels require the most amount of work by far.  The extra body parts aren’t in yet but they really make vessels a pain in the ass.  The absolute chore to create legendary vessels will be months of work (in both training and farming), far beyond what anything else will take. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

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50 minutes ago, mandalore said:

The extra body parts aren’t in yet but they really make vessels a pain in the ass.

What extra body parts?

Which is a non sequitur anyway.  My argument isn't that the difficulty of making an item should result in more (or permanent) durability.  It's that crafting outputs with permanence will imbalance the economy.  It's against the fundamentals of the game design.  I really don't understand the logic behind permanent crafting outputs in a system built on scarcity and impermanence.

 

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1 hour ago, excellz said:

Again, not invalidating the point nor is that factually true.  There will be a "best" vessel (legendary), just as there will be "best" weapons (legendary).

People will choose to acquire new legendary vessels when new disciplines are released that you can't place into your old legendary vessels; or hell, even some older disc's that get buffed post-launch. Your perception of their "permanence" is short-sighted.


Hi, I'm moneda.

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17 hours ago, moneda said:

...when we become unable to remove discipline runes from vessels.

This is going to be a PITA for newer players figuring out what works for them. Any thoughts on leaving the default vessels as is?

We'd still have to get the disciplines, but players would be able to piece their build together, try things out, and upgrade when they find pieces they like better. Once they know what they like, they can start building toward a real vessel with locked disciplines.

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7 hours ago, excellz said:

What extra body parts?

Which is a non sequitur anyway.  My argument isn't that the difficulty of making an item should result in more (or permanent) durability.  It's that crafting outputs with permanence will imbalance the economy.  It's against the fundamentals of the game design.  I really don't understand the logic behind permanent crafting outputs in a system built on scarcity and impermanence.

 

It's pretty simple. The previous system for creating new characters wasn't very intuitive for new players. They wanted to change the character creation to be more traditional, while still keeping the vessels concept. There was also the concern of vessel permanence among the player base as many disliked the idea that their "character" would break and they'd need to create a new one. 

The addition of the talent system and the locking of disciplines will create a significant demand for vessels. Any time you want to change a discipline, new vessel. Any time you want to change a talent, new vessel. Any time you want to try a different race, class or simply upgrade, new vessel.

Sure, someone might have a legendary vessel and no longer need to upgrade it, but they are going to need vessels for other builds/roles that they want to play. And it's not like everyone is going to get to legendary quality and that will be the end of it. There will always be players who are newer to the game, who still need upgraded vessels. There will always be a demand for vessels.

If it does become an issue though, it won't happen until the game is live for a while. If demand drops and there isn't enough for necromancers to do, they can always give necromancers more stuff to make. There are supposed to be combat pets and I've suggested in the past that necromancers could be given the ability to craft pets. Even if the pets are permanent too, that still gives them a whole extra set of things that they can craft and sell.

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Vessels have a different kinda durability.
Its not your typical durability eventuyally you will have to toss them away to make a different build, Disaplines will be locked to a vessel and if u mess up and slot the wrong disapline ull have to remake that toon with a new vessel. Eventually OP skills will be nerfed and vice versa and people will redo there vessels for the new OP build.


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Hehe ... it seems that early on vessels became a part of games lore and it remains a struggle on how to implement it.  While it may look like a piece of equipment given it is crafted like a piece of equipment, it is not a piece of equipment because you have to go through this leveling process.  I would not want have to go through that grind again and again.

If you want to make a vessel a piece of equipment then I think you need to put the whole talent leveling thing back passive.  That is, you have to unlock a particular character class vessel at the requisite level before you can use it.  Once you unlock say Geen Templar, then when you create a new character with this Green Templar vessel you also do a full allocation of talent points in that class talent tree immediately.  I think in concert with this you need to flatten the power curve for the vessels quite a bit to avoid a considerable advantage to players that have been in the game a long time.    


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