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Vessel solution

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2 hours ago, veeshan said:

Its not your typical durability eventuyally you will have to toss them away to make a different build, Disaplines will be locked to a vessel and if u mess up and slot the wrong disapline ull have to remake that toon with a new vessel. Eventually OP skills will be nerfed and vice versa and people will redo there vessels for the new OP build.

 

2 hours ago, Arkade said:

The addition of the talent system and the locking of disciplines will create a significant demand for vessels. Any time you want to change a discipline, new vessel. Any time you want to change a talent, new vessel. Any time you want to try a different race, class or simply upgrade, new vessel.

 

At the risk of sounding repetitive, how is any of this different than players wanting to upgrade or change equipment to suit different builds?  It's not.  Except that other equipment has a durability limit to add additional mechanisms that form the push/pull of the economic system.

To test the argument here - let's assume everyone gets a purple vessel they love and they get the right discs and they level it up.  Boom, done.  What is necromancy now for?  Only for new players.  In theory (yes, theory) - the way the system's designed, a crafting profession can effectively become obsolete.

This isn't true of any of the other crafting professions.

Maybe it won't matter, maybe it will, but you can't argue that it isn't a substantial deviation from the core economic design that could have real impacts after any length of play.

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7 minutes ago, excellz said:

 

At the risk of sounding repetitive, how is any of this different than players wanting to upgrade or change equipment to suit different builds?  It's not.  Except that other equipment has a durability limit to add additional mechanisms that form the push/pull of the economic system.

To test the argument here - let's assume everyone gets a purple vessel they love and they get the right discs and they level it up.  Boom, done.  What is necromancy now for?  Only for new players.  In theory (yes, theory) - the way the system's designed, a crafting profession can effectively become obsolete.

This isn't true of any of the other crafting professions.

Maybe it won't matter, maybe it will, but you can't argue that it isn't a substantial deviation from the core economic design that could have real impacts after any length of play.

It's going to take months in game before people can even begin to make blue vessels with a high degree of success (current skill training is x3 what live is expected).  It might be a year or more till we see people using purple vessels.  That's just basic blue or purple vessels, that's not even accounting for the extra body parts that can be dug up and used (that aren't even in right now).  You have multiple people explaining it and your arguing points covered 6 or 7 posts ago. 

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, excellz said:

What extra body parts?

Which is a non sequitur anyway.  My argument isn't that the difficulty of making an item should result in more (or permanent) durability.  It's that crafting outputs with permanence will imbalance the economy.  It's against the fundamentals of the game design.  I really don't understand the logic behind permanent crafting outputs in a system built on scarcity and impermanence.

 

You keep making the same mistake, that lack of durability loss = permanent.  It doesn't and it wont.  

Players will elect to shelve old vessels for new.  Unlike items, which if you find a better one, you can simply bank the lesser, or sell it on the market, or hand down to a new player, vessels are locked to your account once used.  When you find a better vessel by role, are you going to keep two copies of the same vessel, try another talent profession line, or get rid of the inferior vessel in favor of the higher quality one?  You only have 3 slots whens starting. (yes the six is a testing number).

You won't be swapping disciplines, so if you want one vessel that can use scarecrow, and another mole hunter, you are going to have to use two of those three slots just for that. Then you will want a crafter maybe, or a tank, or a....

If you think about it, you will get the picture.  Getting to even one fully finished legendary vessel, and KNOWING exactly what build to put on it, is going to take you experimenting with lower quality vessels the whole way up.  At some point that early green you thought was so hot, is now redundant and eating a valuable vessel slot.  Trash can and 100% instant decay.

Items need to be degraded, so they don't just get handed down endlessly and over populate the server with second hand gear.  Vessels can't be handed down, or even changed once all the points are assigned, so that is the mechanism that will encourage retirement and circulation.

Come back and worry about it 6 months after launch if there is glut of spare vessels and unemployed necromancers.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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1 minute ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Come back and worry about it 6 months after launch if there is glut of spare vessels and unemployed necromancers.

Isn't it better to worry about it now?  I get the arguments people are making.  I get that they aren't QUITE as swappable / replaceable as gear.  I just hate the idea of how vessels changed since this thing was kickstarted and it's an outlier in their crafting system. 

 

2 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Getting to even one fully finished legendary vessel, and KNOWING exactly what build to put on it, is going to take you experimenting with lower quality vessels the whole way up.

How is that the case?  It's not like Necromancy statistics are buried under a bunch of obscure metrics.  Vessel bonuses are clearly listed on every Necromancy item.  Slot and go.

15 minutes ago, mandalore said:

You have multiple people explaining it and your arguing points covered 6 or 7 posts ago. 

The argument in every post is simply:  "Vessels are harder to acquire, and take longer, and can't be traded, and should therefore be permanent".

My reply has been:  "That's fine, but that permanence will still have game impacts over time that are negative to the economy."

No one's really replied to that except to say - hey, kick the can on that, it's a 6-12 month problem.  Doesn't really address that it's still a problem.

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Just now, excellz said:

No one's really replied to that except to say - hey, kick the can on that, it's a 6-12 month problem.  Doesn't really address that it's still a problem.

What problem?  What can kicking?  The highest end vessels won't even be available in the first year and the mats to farm them will take months (even with the proper training).  The highest end vessels are something to constantly be working towards.  The end game vessels won't be achieved for a long long time for even the most organized or wealthiest of guilds.  It's going to be a work in progress for the time you play the game. 

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, excellz said:

Isn't it better to worry about it now?  I get the arguments people are making.  I get that they aren't QUITE as swappable / replaceable as gear.  I just hate the idea of how vessels changed since this thing was kickstarted and it's an outlier in their crafting system. 

 

Hasn't really changed.  It's always been "Eternal Heroes, Dying Worlds" from the very first kickstarter video.

"The heroes are permanent, the worlds are not"

They were not sure how they were going to do it, and there were decisions to be made, that apparently you don't like, but it has been worried about, to death, and talked about for the last 5 years, so I don't think your really adding anything new to the conversation.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

They were not sure how they were going to do it, and there were decisions to be made, that apparently you don't like, but it has been worried about, to death, and talked about for the last 5 years, so I don't think your really adding anything new to the conversation.

Guess people should stop talking about the crappy performance in large fights, too?  <_<

My argument has been over and over, and not responded to -- permanent items in the game will have negative long-term consequences to the balance of crafting.  Simply repeating what you've said over and over, which is that they take a long time to make, so therefore vessels should be permanent, isn't a great argument because that's not very different than any other high-end gear.  Legendary weapons will also take a long time to percolate into the economy.  Why shouldn't they be permanent?  I KNOW THE ANSWER TO THAT, but my point is that the answer to that question is also why vessels shouldn't have permanence.

Like it or not, it's a valid point.  I don't think the decision is set in stone to the point that you think it is (pre-alpha, right?) so raising points for devs to think about is what these forums are for.  You may not like the argument but don't go all ad hominem on me as a result.  Incredibly powerful items that will last forever once crafted is, to me, a very poor design decision that impacts both the competitiveness of the game, and the economic balance between professions.  I know they'll be a lot of work ... but that's not a poor reason to make them permanent.

Edited by excellz

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, excellz said:

Guess people should stop talking about the crappy performance in large fights, too?  <_<

My argument has been over and over, and not responded to -- permanent items in the game will have negative long-term consequences to the balance of crafting.  

Like it or not, it's a valid point.  I don't think the decision is set in stone to the point that you think it is (pre-alpha, right?) so raising points for devs to think about is what these forums are for.  You may not like the argument but don't go all ad hominem on me as a result.  

 

Oh start with moving the goalposts.  Good call.

Yes it has, you just don't like the answer.

Let me put it this way.  Given that ACE does not consider "balance" in classes a reasonable goal, what makes you assume they want all crafting professions to be balanced? Let the market decide.

 

ad hominem would be attacking you personally, which I did not do. I simply said your not saying anything that hasn't been said before. Repeating it over and over again is not going to shout me down and convince me to agree with you.

For example, I know we have talked about

  • The durability model
    • Which is a terrible user experience and would encourage people to not fight to protect it.
    • Adding in a way for necromancers to repair vessels.
  • A model where each vessel was allowed to commit to a limited number of campaigns and then retire, based on quality.
  • Time based duration (your suggestion), 
  • etc....

So yes, ACE has thought about this issue, and frankly of all the options possible, this seems the best solution because it leaves the most agency in the players hands.  They CAN keep a vessel forever, but they will WANT to upgrade at every opportunity. 

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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14 minutes ago, excellz said:

 You may not like the argument but don't go all ad hominem on me as a result.  In

ad ho·mi·nem
/ˌad ˈhämənəm/
adjective
adjective: ad hominem
  1. 1.
    (of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining
     
    Nobody made personal attacks against you.  You shouldn't falsely accuse people of that here, it's against the ToS.  

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50 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

They were not sure how they were going to do it, and there were decisions to be made, that apparently you don't like, but it has been worried about, to death, and talked about for the last 5 years, so I don't think your really adding anything new to the conversation.

 

^^ There you go.

33 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Repeating it over and over again is not going to shout me down and convince me to agree with you.

^^ And again.  I'm not shouting anyone down?  Only stating that we're two ships crossing in the night, and you're not replying to the point that was trying to be made.

Anyway, to your point, dialogue on the forums is useless as everything that has been said can be said and we might as well just wait in silence to see what ACE comes up with.  Thx!

 

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Posted (edited)
46 minutes ago, excellz said:

^^ There you go.

^^ And again.  I'm not shouting anyone down?  Only stating that we're two ships crossing in the night, and you're not replying to the point that was trying to be made.

Anyway, to your point, dialogue on the forums is useless as everything that has been said can be said and we might as well just wait in silence to see what ACE comes up with.  Thx!

 

Go ahead and talk. I'm not the forum police. Dialogue on the forums is not useless. I was pointing out that this is not a new discussion, and that ACE has not made these choices in a vacuum. 

You did not seem to acknowledge the reasoning and clips from the kickstarter video about "Eternal Heroes" and say things like the below, so I figured it had stopped being a dialog.

Quote

I just hate the idea of how vessels changed since this thing was kickstarted and it's an outlier in their crafting system. 

you can't argue that it isn't a substantial deviation from the core economic design that could have real impacts after any length of play.

The bottom line is, there is no "Vessel problem" that requires a "solution".  Eternal heroes has ALWAYS been the goal.  Previously that was entirely encompassed in the eternal nature of passive training tied to the crow.  They have simply extended that pardime, and the impact of what used to be race/class training,  into the vessels, and in the process given better flexibility and more rapid improvement through active leveling on a per-vessel level. 

I don't know if you can remember or even know, but there used to be arch type promotional classes , AND one of the very first kickstarter rewards was additional "Character/Hero" slots.

Take the kickstarter video I linked above, and then replace the word "Character" or "Hero" with "Vessel", because that is what we have now.

Point out to me how Vessel/Characters/Heroes being permanent is somehow a deviation from the kickstarter video where they describe Vessel/Characters as "Eternal Heroes".

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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31 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Point out to me how Vessel/Characters/Heroes being permanent is somehow a deviation from the kickstarter video where they describe Vessel/Characters as "Eternal Heroes".

Exactly. Vessels weren't even a thing during the kickstarter. That idea was introduced later. So to say that vessels should have decay because of anything they said during kickstarter is disingenuous. 

I do understand the concern about there not being enough demand for vessels, but with the recent changes, I think there will be plenty of demand, even though vessels won't decay. They will get deleted. They will get upgraded. People will try out different builds. All games have a lot of turnover. The most successful ones are those that keep the new players coming in on a regular basis. How many people played WoW back when it started but don't play it now? Yet there are still a lot of people playing it. If the average lifespan of a player in CF is 2 years and it takes more than 2 years for anyone to max out all of their character slots, then it will never be a problem. And don't forget, there are many people with multiple accounts. They will require even more vessels than the average person.

If it does become a problem, it won't be for a least a year after launch. And as I said earlier, there are other ways to make necromancers more relevant if the demand for vessels leaves them wanting. 

You've got to remember that this is an MMO. Players want some level of permanence in the game. I think the current system is a great balance between the two opposing ideas. Planned obsolescence rather than decay. Most people don't replace their phones because they break. They replace them because newer, better phones become available.

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1 hour ago, Arkade said:

Most people don't replace their phones because they break. They replace them because newer, better phones become available.

You must have friends that buy cases for their phones. 

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5 hours ago, Arkade said:

Exactly. Vessels weren't even a thing during the kickstarter. That idea was introduced later. So to say that vessels should have decay because of anything they said during kickstarter is disingenuous. 

Technically, I never suggested this.  Red herring here.

5 hours ago, Arkade said:

I do understand the concern about there not being enough demand for vessels, but with the recent changes, I think there will be plenty of demand, even though vessels won't decay. They will get deleted. They will get upgraded. People will try out different builds. All games have a lot of turnover.

Thanks for being reasonable.  I think it will turn out differently but it's a legitimate argument to test, opinions on whether it will turn out false/negative are what they are.

5 hours ago, Arkade said:

You've got to remember that this is an MMO. Players want some level of permanence in the game. I think the current system is a great balance between the two opposing ideas. Planned obsolescence rather than decay. Most people don't replace their phones because they break. They replace them because newer, better phones become available.

Interesting analogy.  But not entirely true - take a look at all of the cell phone repair shops that permeate any large city :)

 

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On 7.1.2019 at 9:04 PM, Staff said:

IGli4mv.png

Dude ...my blue Vessels has better Stats than this has ^.-

But ... this Vessel should be Bind to a Campaign in Future ..after Campaign Ends ..the Vessel is Dead ! 

Get a New One and start Over .. nothing else 

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6 hours ago, Arkade said:

Planned obsolescence rather than decay. Most people don't replace their phones because they break. They replace them because newer, better phones become available.

Apple would disagree.  

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15 hours ago, Arkade said:

It's pretty simple. The previous system for creating new characters wasn't very intuitive for new players. They wanted to change the character creation to be more traditional, while still keeping the vessels concept. There was also the concern of vessel permanence among the player base as many disliked the idea that their "character" would break and they'd need to create a new one. 

The addition of the talent system and the locking of disciplines will create a significant demand for vessels. Any time you want to change a discipline, new vessel. Any time you want to change a talent, new vessel. Any time you want to try a different race, class or simply upgrade, new vessel.

Sure, someone might have a legendary vessel and no longer need to upgrade it, but they are going to need vessels for other builds/roles that they want to play. And it's not like everyone is going to get to legendary quality and that will be the end of it. There will always be players who are newer to the game, who still need upgraded vessels. There will always be a demand for vessels.

If it does become an issue though, it won't happen until the game is live for a while. If demand drops and there isn't enough for necromancers to do, they can always give necromancers more stuff to make. There are supposed to be combat pets and I've suggested in the past that necromancers could be given the ability to craft pets. Even if the pets are permanent too, that still gives them a whole extra set of things that they can craft and sell.

Pets as a durability item is a great win for the necro.  I am partial to no durability on the vessel, but absolutely like durability hits on pets.

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14 hours ago, mystafyi said:

Apple would disagree.  

Ummm no. Apple stores typically jack up the cost of repairs so high, and block out after market shops as much as possible, just so you HAVE to buy a new phone rather than repair.

Just look at the way they changed the software (then backpedaled once people figured out what was going on) to detect if aftermarket glass and button was installed, and brick the phone if it was.

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10 hours ago, Teufel said:

Pets as a durability item is a great win for the necro.  I am partial to no durability on the vessel, but absolutely like durability hits on pets.

Yup, move that pack pig into Necro, and watch business flourish. 

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7 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Yup, move that pack pig into Necro, and watch business flourish. 

Wouldn't mounts, pets, and vessels make necromancy the most valuable profession by a huge margin?  What else adds that much? 

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