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Vessel solution

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, mandalore said:

Wouldn't mounts, pets, and vessels make necromancy the most valuable profession by a huge margin?  What else adds that much? 

It would be a tough call between that and blacksmith, but yea it could make them the most valuable. Not that there is anything wrong with that in my mind.  Some profession is going to be the defacto "best" one, may as well be the one closest to the lore from a stitching bodies for crows to use. 

I would see it tied close to leatherworker for the animals, because leather crafter also needs some help in my opinion.

It would certainly silence all the gripes about vessels being permanent possibly causing some sort of economic armageddon. 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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Just now, KrakkenSmacken said:

It would be a tough call between that and blacksmith, but yea it could make them the most valuable. Not that there is anything wrong with that in my mind.  Some profession is going to be the defacto "best" one, may as well be the one closest to the lore from a stitching bodies for crows to use. 

I would see it tied close to leatherworker for the animals, because leather crafter also needs some help in my opinion.

It would certainly silence all the gripes about vessels be permanent possibly causing some sort of economic armageddon. 

Eh I'd still hesitate to make it the de facto most valuable one.  We go through ore at a rate that I can see blacksmith being the most used.  Wasn't there going to be some animal husbandry skill? 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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1 hour ago, mandalore said:

Wouldn't mounts, pets, and vessels make necromancy the most valuable profession by a huge margin?  What else adds that much? 

Well, if I had to choose one profession to be the most important I would certainly pick the one that is exclusive to CF. Really, necromancy as of today just isnt as cool as it should be.

That said mounts and pets really arent that close to actual necromancy. It would need some more morbid details. Leave normal pets and mounts to animal husbandry and allow us to harverst the soul of dead mobs together with their body parts. Reanimated pets FTW!

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5 minutes ago, BarriaKarl said:

That said mounts and pets really arent that close to actual necromancy. It would need some more morbid details. Leave normal pets and mounts to animal husbandry and allow us to harverst the soul of dead mobs together with their body parts. Reanimated pets FTW!

It could get pretty morbid if it took hide meat, bone, sinew & blood, to make a mount. Maybe a tooth here & a hoof there... 

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My opinion depends on whether we start new campaigns with fresh vessels.  I like the idea that a new player can pretty much enter a new campaign and have the potential of being roughly equivalent on the battlefield to someone who has played for years.  Crafting and flexibility of roles are the rewards that I like to see carried over through the time limited skills.  And even with crafting, I like the idea that within a campaign there will be an opportunity for the factions to progress through a sort of arms race early on as they gain access to progressively better equipment as their top crafters move into more powerful vessels.

As it is I think the amount of combat parity at the start of a campaign is in a pretty good spot currently.  Vessels, on the other hand can definitely disrupt that balance.  It seems likely that top tier vessels will be significantly more effective in combat.  So, for that reason I hope that if vessels carry over between campaigns that there be some system to limit them.  

As a limiting mechanic, however, if one is needed, I would prefer using food as a way to impose an upkeep of sorts on high tiered vessels.  Maybe, green tier vessels can only eat green tier food, blue vessels blue tier food and so on.  Higher tiered food would of course be more difficult to obtain and there would be an incentive for players to use the upgraded vessels only on a more limited basis.  It would also provide the cooking profession with more meaning and relative importance.  Thematically, it also makes sense since a powerful spirit would naturally need more fuel to keep those fires burning.

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Just now, jollyhaha said:

I like the idea that a new player can pretty much enter a new campaign and have the potential of being roughly equivalent on the battlefield to someone who has played for years. 

If everything carries over from one campaign to the next, a new player will have one campaign where they start new, and it'd certainly be on a less competitive campaign. They won't know what to do, what they want to do, or how to do it. After that campaign, they're leveled, geared & experienced.

If nothing carries forward, every time you start a new campaign, you start over. You run the same rat race to level & gear as fast as possible; leaving the new players in the dust wondering why they're so far behind.

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4 minutes ago, VaMei said:

If nothing carries forward, every time you start a new campaign, you start over. You run the same rat race to level & gear as fast as possible; leaving the new players in the dust wondering why they're so far behind.

The time limited skills would still carry forward.  Time limited skills (and your knowledge) are what largely determine you ability to rapidly progress from nothing into something. Crows with Blacksmith skills will still be blacksmiths. Harvesting skills will still allow you to harvest and so on.  All of those things allow you to indirectly build up your factions power much more quickly. You are not truly starting over.  Also, crafted items and gathered resources are transferable.  That is why I like preserving those traits across campaigns.   Time accrued combat skills are not transferable.  I think these still need to exist as well, but I hope their impact is only moderately significant.

And yes, your knowledge does greatly make a difference. That will hold new players back as well. However, that is not as concrete and it is not out of the players control to remedy the lack of knowledge.  On the other hand, starting the game with 100 strength when everyone else has 300 due to their vessels will be a bigger obstacle.  I also suspect that few necromancers will be handing out top tier vessels to new players if they are anywhere near as difficult to piece together as it seems to be now.

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Posted (edited)

Wasn't going to jump in, but why not?

34 minutes ago, jollyhaha said:

My opinion depends on whether we start new campaigns with fresh vessels.  I like the idea that a new player can pretty much enter a new campaign and have the potential of being roughly equivalent on the battlefield to someone who has played for years.  ....

 

7 minutes ago, jollyhaha said:

The time limited skills would still carry forward.  Time limited skills (and your knowledge) are what largely determine you ability to rapidly progress from nothing into something. Crows with Blacksmith skills will still be blacksmiths. Harvesting skills will still allow you to harvest and so on.  All of those things allow you to indirectly build up your factions power much more quickly. You are not truly starting over.  Also, crafted items and gathered resources are transferable.  That is why I like preserving those traits across campaigns.   Time accrued combat skills are not transferable.  I think these still need to exist as well, but I hope their impact is only moderately significant.

And yes, your knowledge does greatly make a difference. That will hold new players back as well. However, that is not as concrete and it is not out of the players control to remedy the lack of knowledge.  On the other hand, starting the game with 100 strength when everyone else has 300 due to their vessels will be a bigger obstacle.  I also suspect that few necromancers will be handing out top tier vessels to new players if they are anywhere near as difficult to piece together as it seems to be now.

I am sure there will be some campaigns restricted to new/white/zero level vessels with nothing.  

What you are really talking about is campaign options, not game level fundamental changes to how everything has been built changes.  

https://crowfall.com/en/faq/gameplay-and-systems/campaign/

Quote

HOW OPEN ARE YOU TO TRYING NEW IDEAS WITHIN CAMPAIGNS?

Our intention is to make this a community-driven process. We’ll take the best ideas we find, wherever they come from, and give them a shot.

If an idea gains enough traction and fits within the architecture, we’ll try it.

You want to try a world without magic? Cool.
You want to try a world where we introduce cannons as a siege weapon? Sounds interesting.
You want to try a world where each character only has one life – meaning that if you die once, you are permanently banned from the World? Sure, let’s do it.

That’s the cool thing about this development approach: we’re turning our community into a massive, game-designing hivemind.

The system allows for multiple start options, from no imports/new vessels, to bring as many things in as you like. Each type will appeal to a different type of player, and the best ones will survive and be reused over and over again, and the worst will be retired never to see the light of day again.

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

What you are really talking about is campaign options, not game level fundamental changes to how everything has been built changes.  

https://crowfall.com/en/faq/gameplay-and-systems/campaign/

The system allows for multiple start options, from no imports/new vessels, to bring as many things in as you like. Each type will appeal to a different type of player, and the best ones will survive, and the worst will be retired.

Agreed. I'm aware those options are being considered.  I do know which sort of preference I have. My point here was that with respect to those campaign options,  I do think the current vessel design can be a problem for some campaign types (and ok for others).

Edited by jollyhaha

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, jollyhaha said:

Agreed. I'm aware those options are being considered.  I do know which sort of preference I have. My point here was that with respect to those campaign options,  I do think the current vessel design can be a problem for some campaign types (and ok for others).

So really not a problem then.

If you think the vessels are too powerful, stick to campaigns restricted to white vessels.  If you think the necromancer isn't strong enough of a crafter without durability, force it by joining worlds that don't let you pull a vessel out or put one in.

Just because "its' a problem" for "some campaign types" doesn't mean it's a problem.  Take the example from the FAQ above. 

Leveling a confessor vessel would be a real problem for a "world without magic", whatever that looks like.  Or being a human would be a real problem in a "Monsters only" world (Not above, but mentioned elsewhere as a possible option for some future world).

Again, we don't need a universal solution to something that most don't consider a fundamental problem, and can be covered with campaign rule options.  

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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Haha. Yeah, I got you.  It is easy for me to get carried away with all of my imaginings of what this game might end up being.  I'm very enthusiastic about what I'm seeing so far and often find my mind wandering down distant paths of how this or that might eventually work.  That's why I wanted to throw out the food upkeep idea.. I actually don't like the idea of durability on vessels and wanted to share my idea of another option in case it was of any interest.

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Just now, jollyhaha said:

Haha. Yeah, I got you.  It is easy for me to get carried away with all of my imaginings of what this game might end up being.  I'm very enthusiastic about what I'm seeing so far and often find my mind wandering down distant paths of how this or that might eventually work.  That's why I wanted to throw out the food upkeep idea.. I actually don't like the idea of durability on vessels and wanted to share my idea of another option in case it was of any interest.

Worlds where food decays, vs worlds where it doesn't, or chicken ticker consumption rate would be an interesting dial to turn for sure.

Have you hit the hunger shards in the newbie zone?  Stand close and those things eat your chicken ticker FAST, or at least they used to when 5.8 first came out.  The ones in the world don't. So again, another dial. 

It is a fun game to theorycraft about that is for sure.  It just sometimes takes a few pushes to get people to stop thinking in terms of absolutes and full game changes where they are not really needed, and think in terms of "hey this would be a neet campaign option".

 

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4 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Have you hit the hunger shards in the newbie zone?  Stand close and those things eat your chicken ticker FAST, or at least they used to when 5.8 first came out.  

Yep, learned that one the hard way.

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Posted (edited)
On 8.1.2019 at 2:43 PM, Arkade said:

The addition of the talent system and the locking of disciplines will create a significant demand for vessels. Any time you want to change a discipline, new vessel. Any time you want to change a talent, new vessel. 

Why would they do this? It just seems like a huge pain in the ass. What's the point of it?

I'd rather have my vessel break after certain time than having to make a new one, whenever I want to try out a new build.

Edited by Glitchhiker

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40 minutes ago, Glitchhiker said:

Why would they do this? It just seems like a huge pain in the ass. What's the point of it?

 

To add consequences to your choices about build and value to necromancy. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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6 hours ago, mandalore said:

To add consequences to your choices about build and value to necromancy. 

I get that about necromancy value, but there's plenty of other solutions to that, as we can see in this thread.

Alright, some things should have consequences - like dieing - but consequences to trying out new builds?! Why the custard would you need that. It's simply creating an unnecessary barrier to creativity.

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12 hours ago, Glitchhiker said:

[...]

Alright, some things should have consequences - like dieing - but consequences to trying out new builds?! Why the custard would you need that. It's simply creating an unnecessary barrier to creativity.

Those who like to experiment with builds will always do so (and can do - white vessels are for free) If it works quite right on a free vessel they will further develop the build with a better one and then puplish it to the puplic. 

I think it's a good thing to make your choices matter, it's a RPG to some extend and you should feel that. On the other hand it is important for balancing. There are some broken classes at the moment (Pit Fighter and Assa get some dmg buffs they should not recieve, Confessor is played in an unintended way) but not everybody is playing these exact classes. Not only because the current population is here for testing and therefore does not care about beeing "the best", but also it takes some effort to create a new vessel, level and gear it up. When the game goes live most broken things are going to be undone in like 1-3 days. Some will still try to exploit these, but the majority of the population doesn't even know of their existence until it is too late to prepare a new vessel and have a huge gain from it. This game is all about PvP and is very vulnerable to this kind of experience breaking events. 

Edited by FearMe

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9 minutes ago, FearMe said:

Those who like to experiment with builds will always do so (and can do - white vessels are for free) If it works quite right on a free vessel they will further develop the build with a better one and then puplish it to the puplic. 

I think it's a good thing to make your choices matter, it's a RPG to some extend and you should feel that. On the other hand it is important for balancing. There are some broken classes at the moment (Pit Fighter and Assa get some dmg buffs they should not recieve, Confessor is played in an unintended way) but not everybody is playing these exact classes. Not only because the current population is here for testing and therefore does not care about beeing "the best", but also it takes some effort to create a new vessel, level and gear it up. When the game goes live most broken things are going to be undone in like 1-3 days. Some will still try to exploit these, but the majority of the population doesn't even know of their existence until it is too late to prepare a new vessel and have a huge gain from it. This game is all about PvP and is very vulnerable to this kind of experience breaking events. 

^


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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12 hours ago, Glitchhiker said:

I get that about necromancy value, but there's plenty of other solutions to that, as we can see in this thread.

Alright, some things should have consequences - like dieing - but consequences to trying out new builds?! Why the custard would you need that. It's simply creating an unnecessary barrier to creativity.

17500 GP is all it takes to level up a white barring any other sources of XP.

Now, rare disciplines and access to them is another matter, but that again is a balancing issue. I would expect that ACE will control the flow of those based on popularity and "newness". 

So perhaps new disciplines are added in for example the first campaign in February, and LOTS of them are distributed so people can test. Then come March, ACE see's just how effective and popular a few of the builds around it are, and they cut down on the availability of it.  

BUT,

By then there will be player build guilds and other sources that will show how effective that build is, and now it's not so much a question of experimentation, as it is implementation. 

League of Legends has the same sort of cycle related to new champs.  Everyone and their dog tries the new thing, and then moves on to the next when the majority of it's builds and powers are understood. If your a dedicated experimenter, then you will have had to put in at least 20 or so games (30-45 min each, 10hrs minimum) and either paying for the champ, or having ground up enough play reward currency to buy it, doing the discovery.  If your not, you will just follow what everyone else suggests.

CF has an even shorter discovery time than that.  2-3 hours of play and your built, or even less from twinking gold/mats/disciplines to your new toon.  4-5 hours of play to get a feel for it, to see if it's worth a "real" vessel, and to hunt the disciplines again in the process. 

Some people actually like that sort of gameplay, where you work towards testing a new thing good or bad, and would not have it any other way. If your not one of those players, wait for the guides to come out telling you how to do everything.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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31 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

17500 GP is all it takes to level up a white barring any other sources of XP.

Now, rare disciplines and access to them is another matter, but that again is a balancing issue. I would expect that ACE will control the flow of those based on popularity and "newness". 

So perhaps new disciplines are added in for example the first campaign in February, and LOTS of them are distributed so people can test. Then come March, ACE see's just how effective and popular a few of the builds around it are, and they cut down on the availability of it.  

BUT,

By then there will be player build guilds and other sources that will show how effective that build is, and now it's not so much a question of experimentation, as it is implementation. 

League of Legends has the same sort of cycle related to new champs.  Everyone and their dog tries the new thing, and then moves on to the next when the majority of it's builds and powers are understood. If your a dedicated experimenter, then you will have had to put in at least 20 or so games (30-45 min each, 10hrs minimum) and either paying for the champ, or having ground up enough play reward currency to buy it, doing the discovery.  If your not, you will just follow what everyone else suggests.

CF has an even shorter discovery time than that.  2-3 hours of play and your built, or even less from twinking gold/mats/disciplines to your new toon.  4-5 hours of play to get a feel for it, to see if it's worth a "real" vessel, and to hunt the disciplines again in the process. 

Some people actually like that sort of gameplay, where you work towards testing a new thing good or bad, and would not have it any other way. If your not one of those players, wait for the guides to come out telling you how to do everything.

So your first point about frequency of new items is a common sense game design. Everybody does it and it has literally nothing to do with what we're arguing about. 

 Your comparison with testing out new champs in LoL is completly ridiculous. That's already the fun testing phase that would come AFTER hours of grinding levels and gear for a new vessel just to test out something that might or might not work. Quite likely you'll have spent that time for nothing.

Build crafting is one of my favorite things in games like CF. Having to give up and redo so many things every single time before beeing able to experiment on something is a huge turnoff for me and probably many other players. And for what? So your decisions have consequences? What a BS.

I'm all for consequences of actions, but in the right way. 

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