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Vessel solution

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I like that Cf is about consequence of choice.  That not every person can have 19 geared alts ready for any scenario.  The effort required for each character forces identity.  


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

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1 minute ago, Jah said:

You can experiment on builds fine with free vessels.

What are you even talking about? Can I get a fully leveled and geared white vessel from some wonderous genie? I'd be eternally grateful.

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2 minutes ago, mandalore said:

I like that Cf is about consequence of choice.  That not every person can have 19 geared alts ready for any scenario.  The effort required for each character forces identity.  

Nobody denies that choices should have consequences and I'm in no way arguing about HOW much effort it should take to level and gear a vessel (even tho that's a subject they should actually rethink), but that there is no point to go through the whole leveling process to EXPERIMENT on disciplines.

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15 minutes ago, Glitchhiker said:

What are you even talking about? Can I get a fully leveled and geared white vessel from some wonderous genie? I'd be eternally grateful.

The Genie is you, preparing for a new vessel to test. 

Play the game with another vessel you already enjoy, and use your surplus gold and mats, and existing gear, and you can level a white to full in 15 minutes on hand me down gear. 

When I played LoL, I used to spend hours on a champ I knew to earn enough play currency, (Currently "Blue Essence"), to unlock a champ. In fact LoL takes LONGER to earn a new champ to try that CF takes to level a white.  

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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I'd be totally fine with a design like the one LoL has. It would mean I could do what I enjoy, in this example pvp, to get a currency that instantly gets me a fully functional character on par with every other player. But that's not how it is in CF.

Start thinking before making these arguments. It seems to me you post here just for the sake of disagreeing.

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1 minute ago, Glitchhiker said:

I'd be totally fine with a design like the one LoL has. It would mean I could do what I enjoy, in this example pvp, to get a currency that instantly gets me a fully functional character on par with every other player. But that's not how it is in CF.

Start thinking before making these arguments. It seems to me you post here just for the sake of disagreeing.

This isn't a MOBA.  What you are describing is a MOBA.  

Your right, that's not how it is in CF, nor was it ever supposed to be that way.  That would be a completely different game than the one I backed.

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6 minutes ago, Glitchhiker said:

I'd be totally fine with a design like the one LoL has. It would mean I could do what I enjoy, in this example pvp, to get a currency that instantly gets me a fully functional character on par with every other player. But that's not how it is in CF.

Start thinking before making these arguments. It seems to me you post here just for the sake of disagreeing.

You can get currency from pvp. Either from looting it, or by having a guild that appreciates your pvp contributions handing you the resources you need.


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2 minutes ago, Jah said:

You can get currency from pvp. Either from looting it, or by having a guild that appreciates your pvp contributions handing you the resources you need.

Stop with those meaningless arguments. Just because you're bringing up points that would make it marginally less tidious doesn't mean it's any less unnecessary. Tell me why we need this design, rather than telling me how little you'd mind leveling and gearing a new character for every discipline you'd like to test.

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4 minutes ago, Glitchhiker said:

 

Stop with those meaningless arguments. Just because you're bringing up points that would make it marginally less tidious doesn't mean it's any less unnecessary. Tell me why we need this design, rather than telling me how little you'd mind leveling and gearing a new character for every discipline you'd like to test.

One word, and a huge segment of any successful MMO population. Achievers.

Quote

In many ways, the Achiever is the style of play most targeted by the MMORPG genre. In many successful MMOs, there is always something else to achieve; even when the character has reached the highest level, as there are usually rare items to obtain and objectives that were bypassed the first time around. Since Achievers can sometimes set very obscure goals for themselves, especially if they feel like they'll be (among) the first to achieve them, they may spend long periods of time engaging in a repetitive action in order to get one more award.

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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35 minutes ago, Glitchhiker said:

Alright. I have no idea why you think this is relevant to the argument. Please elaborate.

Quick lesson on Bartle's taxonomy of players.  There are 4 main categories of reasons people play MMO's. Killer, Achiever, Socializers, and Explorers.  People vary in taste, but most will fall heavily into 2 of the four classes.  I for example am a high Killer/Achiever.  

Achievers have a drive to achieve, to feel like something they have done in game has given them progress. They sometimes want a clear path, (often leveling), and sometimes a hidden path, (New powers previously unexplored).  Achiever/Socializer will want to be able to lay claim to unique discoveries, often through hard to find combinations and such.

If you just "give" people the instant ability to acquire and test all the possibilities without effort, you strip out all sorts of opportunity to appeal to an achiever.

Pure killers who are either social explorer, or only mildly achievers, or even just a different type of achiever, which is what I suspect you are, are not at all interested in that sort of thing, so they often consider the idea of putting in effort to achieve the state of competitive performance, to be nothing but a hindrance, wanting to be entirely reliant on skill.

You can not have all systems appeal to all type's and leveling is very much achiever content, but you must have some systems that appeal to every category.

Social is super duper covered in CF with the interdependencies and leaning towards guild play.  

Explorer needs work, but does have a solid base in the fact that each campaign has a different world and layout, which can only be expanded over time. Add into the dregs players ability to place structure, and you have a very dynamic exploration model.

Killers.  Well that's pretty obvious.  You get ahead by beating up other players.  Very well covered.

Achievers have crafting, EK's, and now they have leveling and discipline choices. They also have the killer/achiever mix with the scoreboards, victory conditions and rewards.

The reason it's relevant, is that prior to the leveling change, there was quite a number of achievers who were dissatisfied with the primary leveling experience to be nothing they could "earn", being tied entirely to passive training. Adding in what is demonstrably only a few hours of effort to level and test a white vessel, is going to appeal to more achiever players.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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It’s important to note that even as a dedicated “killer” you still won’t rate 100% killer.  Take the test, it’s interesting. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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I'm sorry I have to put it like that, because you put quite some effort into this and I apreciate that, but this is the most stupid reply so far.

What you are telling me is (picking out the only relevant point you made there), that the reason why build crafters have to go through all that hassle is so that achievers have something to achieve and that beeing "yaay, I just spend alot of time and resources so I can test out that discipline i thought would work well with the build I have on my other character". What an achievment...

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2 minutes ago, Glitchhiker said:

I'm sorry I have to put it like that, because you put quite some effort into this and I apreciate that, but this is the most stupid reply so far.

What you are telling me is (picking out the only relevant point you made there), that the reason why build crafters have to go through all that hassle is so that achievers have something to achieve and that beeing "yaay, I just spend alot of time and resources so I can test out that discipline i thought would work well with the build I have on my other character". What an achievment...

Think 3 hours of active play is a dumb idea, check this out.

 

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Alright. Even tho incomprehensible for me, I can agree with you that from an achievers point of view it might be worth grinding for several hours to test a discipline.

But now listen to this. What about we give achievers other things to achieve and give build crafters easier tools to experiment? What loss would it be for the achievers?

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Also a question for you. What defines an achievment? Is it the way there?Meaning, the longer it takes the better the achievment. Or is it the endproduct? The fancier, stronger, more prestigious the endproduct is the more the achievment is worth.

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20 minutes ago, Glitchhiker said:

Alright. Even tho incomprehensible for me, I can agree with you that from an achievers point of view it might be worth grinding for several hours to test a discipline.

But now listen to this. What about we give achievers other things to achieve and give build crafters easier tools to experiment? What loss would it be for the achievers?

Different type cross types.

  • Achiever/killer, wants to find the best way to get to the top of the scoreboard and be noticed for having the best killing skills. Having an unique and deadly build that gives you an edge, that is not easy to duplicate (or perhaps play), is a real draw.
  • Achiever/Social wants to show off achievements.  ACE has this covered in crafting and EK.  You can name your gear, being the "best blacksmith" is an achievable goal, and having a shop in a popular EK trade site are all content for those types. 
  • Achiever/Explorer wants to find rare and hard to achieve corner cases for many different things. First to see the top of a mountain, or the guy who "discovers" a unique and interesting build that can't be copied instantly, that they can get the credit for in the online guides and such.

To me, if you can too easily plow through all the possible iterations and "explore" all the options as fast as you can click the buttons and whack a few testing dummies, it will devalue the "achievement" side of things for the killer/achievers. 

Killer/Social, won't care about that, they just want to get to the killing and show it off.

Killer/Explorer will probably feel much the same way.  They want to get "out there" and get things done.

And both of those killers will want to have the best set up as quickly as possible to achieve those goals. The whole harvesting vs combat discipline thing (which is going away), is really something that rubs them the wrong way. 

I would guess that Killer/Explorer's are the most bothered by the leveling. Socials will have a group that supports them, so instant leveling won't be much of problem, and they are also probably the most willing to review other players builds and just copy. While explorer types will want to try everything, without feeling much achievement along the way.

So I can see why it's not at all appealing to Killer/Explorers, and frankly I already posted a suggestion for VIP access to include "free" white vessel leveling to 20 so as to give those types of players an avenue.  

I would rather talk about how to make the process less grindy for those that are not interested in it for achievement reasons, than just write it off and take out what is essentially an expected and staple mechanic in most if not all MMO's. 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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