bignick22000

Campaign seasons and full wipes (The Equity issue)

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Posted (edited)

     In a Q&A video talking about campaigns Thomas Blair said something along the lines that he envisioned The campaigns being "like" an Esport. But a few things worried me when it comes to this type of competition and that was equality of the players. Ending a old campaign and starting a new campaign doesn't mean every one is starting equal. Passive training will make sure of this and if people can import items from spirit banks at the start of a new campaign it will further compound this problem.

I suggest if a campaign lasts say six months that at the end of that campaign Passive traits are completely reset and start over, as well as any weapons and resources that were obtained.  Meaning that any item or resource form an campaign can never be imported to another campaign. This allows all players to start out completely the same for that new campaign.

This idea came after a MOBA game (Smite) I was playing the other day; during the game you can level, obtain gear, choose skill and because of your performance not all players are equal during this little campaign but after the game ends every player can think about how they leveled the classes they went and the items they purchased and try again in a new game completely equal. I think if we truly want a good competitive atmosphere during these campaigns full resets need to be made.

Here are the benefits of this reset system.

1. It gives players opportunities to choose different passive training professions after each campaign. Maybe in the next campaign a player wants to focus on Blacksmith or leather working.
2. Gives players an opportunity to try all aspects of the game rather than be held down to one or two choices.
3. Allows new players an equal opportunity to enter the game the game with out getting steam rolled by a more established character.
4. A start of a campaign is also a thrill, the building of traits and professions the race for resources, this is a thrill that should not only be experienced at release of the game.
5. This will also give all players something to continually work for some players the journey to power is the goal, once they get it they loose interest. This way that journey resets for them anew.

Edited by bignick22000

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2 hours ago, bignick22000 said:

I suggest if a campaign lasts say six months that at the end of that campaign Passive traits are completely reset and start over, as well as any weapons and resources that were obtained.  Meaning that any item or resource form an campaign can never be imported to another campaign. This allows all players to start out completely the same for that new campaign.

You mean the account skills when you say passive traits? If so, I would like to remind you that would mess up folks that are involved in multiple campaigns. One can simply play a campaign with no imports but passive account skill differences would still be there. A player with maxed out account skills will have advantages over a newer player

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3 hours ago, bignick22000 said:

     In a Q&A video talking about campaigns Thomas Blair said something along the lines that he envisioned The campaigns being "like" an Esport. But a few things worried me when it comes to this type of competition and that was equality of the players. Ending a old campaign and starting a new campaign doesn't mean every one is starting equal. Passive training will make sure of this and if people can import items from spirit banks at the start of a new campaign it will further compound this problem.

I suggest if a campaign lasts say six months that at the end of that campaign Passive traits are completely reset and start over, as well as any weapons and resources that were obtained.  Meaning that any item or resource form an campaign can never be imported to another campaign. This allows all players to start out completely the same for that new campaign.

This idea came after a MOBA game (Smite) I was playing the other day; during the game you can level, obtain gear, choose skill and because of your performance not all players are equal during this little campaign but after the game ends every player can think about how they leveled the classes they went and the items they purchased and try again in a new game completely equal. I think if we truly want a good competitive atmosphere during these campaigns full resets need to be made.

Here are the benefits of this reset system.

-It gives players opportunities to choose different passive training professions after each campaign. Maybe in the next campaign a player wants to focus on Blacksmith or leather working.
-Gives players an opportunity to try all aspects of the game rather than be held down to one or two choices.
-Allows new players an equal opportunity to enter the game the game with out getting steam rolled by a more established character.
-A start of a campaign is also a thrill, the building of traits and professions the race for resources, this is a thrill that should not only be experienced at release of the game.
-This will also give all players something to continually work for some players the journey to power is the goal, once they get it they loose interest. This way that journey resets for them anew.

It's a fallacy to think there is anything like a "equality of the players". Good computer hardware, internet connection, time zone, proximity to the hosting centers, free time to play the game, and a host of other issues not even taking into consideration personal skill, will all be a factor. 

The goal of CF is to make it so "Uncle Bob", or better yet "Uncle Bob's Team"  does not start with an overwhelming advantage.  

 

Passive training takes YEARS to accumulate, players will never reach the end of what you call a "journey to power", and doing a wipe would be way worse for the games population than people dedicated enough to put in years finally losing interest.

With the changes to the talents, and the ability to slot any profession and get the recipes, I would much rather ACE eventually make campaigns where all passive training is simply ignored, with zero imports/exports, than for them to even consider anything like a wipe.

With that we could all see how popular the whole idea of an "equal" start is, without taking away other people's progress.

I however suspect the interest in that world would be rather marginal.

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First, the people developing the game have thought through every issue that you can think of.  There are decisions that have to be made along the way, for better or worse, regarding core design.  In short, this isn't day one of design.

Second, among other things, THERE WILL BE CAMPAIGNS WITH ZERO IMPORTS.

Third, can you please articulate the advantage, specifically, that players who played in a prior campaign will have over others?  Do you know the amount of exports everyone will get?  How do you know that good gear and other items won't be available to newer players?  What is the specific difference between white and green advanced gear and blue, purple, and orange gear?  How will factories affect the availability of higher quality gear?  How will inventory space limitations affect the storage of higher quality items?

If you don't know these things, then maybe it's time to back up and be less concerned with the perceived inequality of outcome black hole and focus more on equality of opportunity, even if that means declaring a winner.  I want people to actually play the game and if you don't give anything for winning, then I'm not going to play the game.  I'm not going to win every time, although that would be great, but you have to put a carrot in front of my snout for me to walk up the mountain; maybe you steal it before I can eat it, but that's the bargain I make.

I ask this of everyone promoting the same ideas as OP: is it the love of the downtrodden or jealousy of the wealthy that drives your "equality" thought processes?

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38 minutes ago, mystafyi said:

You mean the account skills when you say passive traits? If so, I would like to remind you that would mess up folks that are involved in multiple campaigns. One can simply play a campaign with no imports but passive account skill differences would still be there. A player with maxed out account skills will have advantages over a newer player

Ya i thought about that, the account training traits would have to be campaign bound to the characters involved in that campaign. or all the campaigns would have to start and end at the same time.

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, bignick22000 said:

Ya i thought about that, the account training traits would have to be campaign bound to the characters involved in that campaign. or all the campaigns would have to start and end at the same time.

A campaign specific training system might be interesting. 

You should probably not have said "that at the end of that campaign Passive traits are completely reset and start over" because that would be a fundamental switch to the games RPG philosophy, and what was pitched (and funded), from the start.

"Eternal heros, dying worlds"

 

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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19 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

With the changes to the talents, and the ability to slot any profession and get the recipes, I would much rather ACE eventually make campaigns where all passive training is simply ignored, with zero imports/exports, than for them to even consider anything like a wipe.With that we could all see how popular the whole idea of an "equal" start is, without taking away other people's progress.

I however suspect the interest in that world would be rather marginal.

"I would much rather ACE eventually make campaigns where all passive training is simply ignored."

Yes I totally agree with this, the passive training taking years I think is a huge problem and this is why.


   1. What if you spent a year putting points towards mass production and then decided you wanted to try a different route. I know the devs want choices to matter but these leave
        a  lot of content in the game to be unexplored by the user.

   2. You have to worry about the "Eve" affect. In Eve its very had to break into the game as a new user. The time and effort one needs to put into the game just to get established and  
       survive is not worth it for a lot of players. What happens when some one Joins Crowfall two years in? not only do they have to over come a learning curve they have to deal with
       being two years behind in passive talents as well as players bringing in purple items from a previous campaign. This will also add to steam rolling problems they are
       having in testing.

 I don't think people would have a problem with gear and passive talents not carrying over if other types of desirable rewards could be given. For evidence of this look at other genre such as moba's, battle royals, and even other MMO's.  If you want competition in this "throne war" they are going to have to marginalize somethings. Think about it, MMO's like WOW do wipes with expansions, they don't wipe the gear but it becomes obsolete. Diablo does it with their seasonal characters and after these wipes players return back in droves to play.

 And as for rewards you can get skins for crafting gear, this would be a huge incentive to win. Special buildings for your EK or guild halls. Furniture or statues in Eternal kingdoms,
 titles Maybe some type of guild control of a fort or keep when taken. Character skins or access to special characters. There are many other rewards they could give these are just somethings off the top of my head.
 

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, bignick22000 said:

What happens when some one Joins Crowfall two years in? not only do they have to over come a learning curve they have to deal with

       being two years behind in passive talents as well as players bringing in purple items from a previous campaign. This will also add to steam rolling problems they are
       having in testing.

The devs have already spoken about adding in "catchup skill tomes" after the game launches to that new players can get a boost to their account skills. There was worry that vets could use these to boost their skills even farther ahead, but last I heard there will be a running cap so that nobody can exploit this to get ahead of day 1 players. 

This has mollified my fears on this subject to the point I don't see this as a major issue currently. 

Edited by mystafyi

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48 minutes ago, Pycet said:

Second, among other things, THERE WILL BE CAMPAIGNS WITH ZERO IMPORTS.

Third, can you please articulate the advantage, specifically, that players who played in a prior campaign will have over others?  Do you know the amount of exports everyone will get?  How do you know that good gear and other items won't be available to newer players?  What is the specific difference between white and green advanced gear and blue, purple, and orange gear?  How will factories affect the availability of higher quality gear?  How will inventory space limitations affect the storage of higher quality items?

 

PYCET,

To comment on your Second point; no i did not know about the zero imports and i am glad to hear it. However, my problem is also with the passive training. If building talents takes years to accumulate what happens to the player that joins year two? The late player will be at odds with every other player even with the current idea of a catch up mechanic. Established players will be taking out newer players in the beginning of the campaign just as those new players try to grab resources further compounding the catch up problem.

And your Third set of questions are confusing to me they do not really follow my original post but let me just try and answer.


"Do you know the amount of exports everyone will get?
No, and it sounds like they Dev's are not sure what they will be yet as well this is why I bring the topic up for discussion.

"How do you know that good gear and other items won't be available to newer players?"
This question is puzzling to me. Are you suggesting that people are just around waiting to give free gear to new players? Obviously Good gear will be able obtainable to new players in time.  My issue is that it will be at a slower rate then established characters at the start of a new campaign.

What is the specific difference between white and green advanced gear and blue, purple, and orange gear?
I'm assuming your playing in the current test. Do you not know the current difference between these items?

How will factories affect the availability of higher quality gear?
I don't know my original post didn't have anything to do with this yoj might need to explain.

How will inventory space limitations affect the storage of higher quality items?
Again i don't see what this has to do with starting new campaigns with all players being fresh starts.

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Posted (edited)

"You should probably not have said "that at the end of that campaign Passive traits are completely reset and start over" because that would be a fundamental switch to the games RPG philosophy, and what was pitched (and funded), from the start."

Well you got me when it comes to the RPG philosophy but this passive skill training will eventually bar new players wanting to join. One thing Todd did say was how do you marry the RPG aspect of an eternal MMO with a ending world. The thing is most MMO's do have this wipe effect it happens every time their is an expansion.

Edited by bignick22000

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34 minutes ago, mystafyi said:

The devs have already spoken about adding in "catch up skill tomes" after the game launches to that new players can get a boost to their account skills. There was worry that vets could use these to boost their skills even farther ahead, but last I heard there will be a running cap so that nobody can exploit this to get ahead of day 1 players. 

This has mollified my fears on this subject to the point I don't see this as a major issue currently. 

Ya i Have heard about these Tomes but it still worries because they players will never fully catch up even with these tomes. And if it takes two years to max out your passive skill pips who will be sacrificing their skill experience? And if these tomes are so easy to get every one will be maxed out and then what is the point of the timed passive skill training.

And this also doesn't beg the really important question. what if i decide to go into crafting instead of combat? I will eventually want to do this so I can experience more aspects of the game will I be able to reset? and then am I behind?

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If i play a game for six months, and you wipe everything I have done. I would simply quit. I don't want to speak for everyone but for those of us who work and have kids there is no way, I would play a game for six months and have you wipe everything I have done in that six months. I'm sorry! When I play smite for 30 minutes and have to start back at Zero ok , that's 30 minutes of my life. The best part of playing a MMO is the rewards for leveling up, gearing up and having a sense of accomplishment for what you have done. Wiping that over and over people would not continue to play.  Just my outlook on the idea of wiping passive and gear. There has to be a reward for sinking time into a game, otherwise, those of us with limited playing time will always be at the mercy of the people who play 24/7.

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, Archiebunker82 said:

If i play a game for six months, and you wipe everything I have done. I would simply quit. I don't want to speak for everyone but for those of us who work and have kids there is no way, I would play a game for six months and have you wipe everything I have done in that six months. I'm sorry! When I play smite for 30 minutes and have to start back at Zero ok , that's 30 minutes of my life. The best part of playing a MMO is the rewards for leveling up, gearing up and having a sense of accomplishment for what you have done. Wiping that over and over people would not continue to play.  Just my outlook on the idea of wiping passive and gear. There has to be a reward for sinking time into a game, otherwise, those of us with limited playing time will always be at the mercy of the people who play 24/7.

Ya I am defiantly at odds here with this idea, From my point of view their are ways to show rewards with out starting a new campaign with gear and talents from a previous one but those are mostly cosmetic things. I think fresh campaign starts are great ideas, the rush and fight for resources, the busy crafters pumping out gear to get an advantage over the other factions. The low geared pvp, the equal opportunity at the start of the campaign. To me it that sounds like a lot of fun but it will not happen in the current set up. Well, it will happen, once.

 

Maybe they can have a competitive campaign that blocks out passive skills.

Edited by bignick22000

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1 hour ago, bignick22000 said:

PYCET,

To comment on your Second point; no i did not know about the zero imports and i am glad to hear it.  However, my problem is also with the passive training. If building talents takes years to accumulate what happens to the player that joins year two? The late player will be at odds with every other player even with the current idea of a catch up mechanic. Established players will be taking out newer players in the beginning of the campaign just as those new players try to grab resources further compounding the catch up problem.

And your Third set of questions are confusing to me they do not really follow my original post but let me just try and answer.


"Do you know the amount of exports everyone will get?
No, and it sounds like they Dev's are not sure what they will be yet as well this is why I bring the topic up for discussion.

"How do you know that good gear and other items won't be available to newer players?"
This question is puzzling to me. Are you suggesting that people are just around waiting to give free gear to new players? Obviously Good gear will be able obtainable to new players in time.  My issue is that it will be at a slower rate then established characters at the start of a new campaign.

What is the specific difference between white and green advanced gear and blue, purple, and orange gear?
I'm assuming your playing in the current test. Do you not know the current difference between these items?

How will factories affect the availability of higher quality gear?
I don't know my original post didn't have anything to do with this yoj might need to explain.

How will inventory space limitations affect the storage of higher quality items?
Again i don't see what this has to do with starting new campaigns with all players being fresh starts.

Keep in mind that if you're going to propose fundamental changes to the game mechanics, YOU BEAR THE BURDEN OF PROOF.

You state that you have a problem with veterans getting imports, I tell you that there are campaigns planned that have no imports, and then you change the subject.

You state that you have a problem with passive training, but yet you can't articulate how a skill differential actually impacts gameplay, if at all.

Other players ask you how you plan to incentivize them to play when there is no progression or reward for winning and you do not have any answers.

I guess my problem with all of this is that you don't let your ignorance get in the way of proposing changes to the game.  Fortunately or unfortunately, given the directions the developers have taken recently, I fear that they are listening to these types of posts and, as a result, I feel compelled to voice a little stronger opposition than has been present in the forums up to this point.

If you want to learn how to play the game better or learn more about it, then there are many of us who would be happy to help you.  We all had to do so at one point (the learning actually never stops) and the learning curve is very steep.

PS, my questions were rhetorical...

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I guess in my view the resets are the great equalizer. It allows people to reset and plan a new. Passive skills are the reward for time invested. 

New players will be at a disadvantage to older players but the older players will move towards harder campaign with more rewards where younger/newer players will play the easier ones and work up to the harder ones.

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8 minutes ago, bignick22000 said:

I think fresh campaign starts are great ideas, the rush and fight for resources, the busy crafters pumping out gear to get an advantage over the other factions. The low geared pvp, the equal opportunity at the start of the campaign. To me it that sounds like a lot of fun but it will not happen in the current set up. Well, it will happen, once.

Maybe they can have a competitive campaign that blocks out passive skills.

You realize that within the first 3-5 hours of the launch of a campaign that a solo player can get a mount, level to 30, and obtain advanced gear?  All of which put that solo player in a sufficient position to play for every aspect of the game for an indefinite period of time?  Possibly for the remainder of the entire game's existence?

Further, you have no idea what "equal opportunity" means in the context of Crowfall.  You're not advocating equality of opportunity, you're advocating for equality of outcome under the guise of opportunity because you know the former is a losing argument.

If you're going to propose changes to the game, then YOU MUST IDENTIFY THE PROBLEM THAT YOU'RE TRYING TO CURE.  It's not enough to complain that some people start with items from prior campaigns.  You have to articulate HOW MUCH of an advantage this actually provides.  Your failure to do so, or even attempt to do so, tells everyone all they need to know about your proposition, that it's simply an emotional response to fundamental mechanics of the game.

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13 minutes ago, Pycet said:

You realize that within the first 3-5 hours of the launch of a campaign that a solo player can get a mount, level to 30, and obtain advanced gear?  All of which put that solo player in a sufficient position to play for every aspect of the game for an indefinite period of time?  Possibly for the remainder of the entire game's existence?

Further, you have no idea what "equal opportunity" means in the context of Crowfall.  You're not advocating equality of opportunity, you're advocating for equality of outcome under the guise of opportunity because you know the former is a losing argument.

If you're going to propose changes to the game, then YOU MUST IDENTIFY THE PROBLEM THAT YOU'RE TRYING TO CURE.  It's not enough to complain that some people start with items from prior campaigns.  You have to articulate HOW MUCH of an advantage this actually provides.  Your failure to do so, or even attempt to do so, tells everyone all they need to know about your proposition, that it's simply an emotional response to fundamental mechanics of the game.

I am by all means not complaining at all just having a health discussion throwing out some ideas and seeing what other people think about it. And your tone is just extremely combative and a bit troll like. I'm assuming you mistook the meaning behind my post so i will try to explain myself a bit  better. Further more if you had read through the post you would have seen the evolution of my thought from other community members.

3-5 hours leveling fully and having advanced gear is really really pushing it for a new player. Can it be done? ya probably but a new player won't experience all those things in 3-5 hours.

"All of which put that solo player in a sufficient position to play for every aspect of the game"
t really doesn't, in advanced Common gear you might not get wreaked immediately like you would with out it but you are still getting smashed.  A few Friends of mine experienced this first hand many times(for disclaimer I'm going to just say i don't ahve a problem with that just using it as evidence against your point) The geared players really smash the common armor wearers. What you might be able to do is sit in the background of a group and throw shots hear and there and maybe some heals. And in common your are basically crossing your fingers hoping no one sees you gathering resources all while geared players are scouting around looking for those kills.

Further, you have no idea what "equal opportunity" means in the context of Crowfall.
Is this comment really necessary in a healthy debate? You jump to an extreme here for the sake of insult. This is cheep and makes you seem unhinged.

You're not advocating equality of opportunity, you're advocating for equality of outcome under the guise of opportunity because you know the former is a losing argument.
You make a claim her but back it up with no evidence further more you cite anything specifically  from my post leaving me to wounder what you are really having a problems with.

if you're going to propose changes to the game, then YOU MUST IDENTIFY THE PROBLEM THAT YOU'RE TRYING TO CURE.
I didn't say the game had a problem I was talking about an equity issue that has been brought up in Q&A's, forums, and on other Youtube channels. I don't think there is a problem with the game I am simply discussing what some might, and do see as an equity issue.

And I did state my issue clearly when I said:
"Passive training will make sure of this and if people can import items from spirit banks at the start of a new campaign it will further compound this problem."

I did learn that their will be no import campaigns some one corrected me on that and I was happy to hear it. But to say the Passive training won't cause an equity issue for new players is just silly. "However other community members have respectfully shared their views and I do understand from their point of view even if i disagree with them. But I am not going to go through and point that all out you can go back and read it if you like.

 

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53 minutes ago, Pycet said:

Keep in mind that if you're going to propose fundamental changes to the game mechanics, YOU BEAR THE BURDEN OF PROOF.

You state that you have a problem with veterans getting imports, I tell you that there are campaigns planned that have no imports, and then you change the subject.

You state that you have a problem with passive training, but yet you can't articulate how a skill differential actually impacts gameplay, if at all.

Other players ask you how you plan to incentivize them to play when there is no progression or reward for winning and you do not have any answers.

I guess my problem with all of this is that you don't let your ignorance get in the way of proposing changes to the game.  Fortunately or unfortunately, given the directions the developers have taken recently, I fear that they are listening to these types of posts and, as a result, I feel compelled to voice a little stronger opposition than has been present in the forums up to this point.

If you want to learn how to play the game better or learn more about it, then there are many of us who would be happy to help you.  We all had to do so at one point (the learning actually never stops) and the learning curve is very steep.

PS, my questions were rhetorical...

You are very combative and I am sorry If I have offended you or maybe I am just reading to much into your tone. Let me state that I actually love this game, its a lot of fun even as it is now but I do see some issues with the passive skill training for the future and I know i am not alone in this. With that being said I do love your feed back and I did learn something from your post so thank you for that.

"I tell you that there are campaigns planned that have no imports, and then you change the subject."
I didn't change the subject I just learned about it, some one pointed that out to me and I was happy to hear it.

You state that you have a problem with passive training, but yet you can't articulate how a skill differential actually impacts game play, if at all.
I didn't cite specific examples because I assumed people new what was in the passive training skills. So here is a sample of what I am talking about. It was stated that the top tears of the trees would take a year or two to train into so lets look at just a few bonuses for the top two trees if you train a ranger.

If you are going long bows and train through Ranged and Great Ranged here are some of the benefits you can get.

Two Power Penetration bonuses for 3% each.
One critical hit damage modifier of 3%
Three Crit hit chances for 3%
Two power efficiency bonuses for .015% (and If I'm being honest here I don't know the math to understand the damage this adds since I am not familiar with this stat)
Three attack power bonuses that ad +25
One armor penetration bonus for 3%

This is just a small sample and doesn't include the movement modifiers no does it include the bonuses from other trees you could stack. Just those modifies are pretty awesome modifiers.

I guess my problem with all of this is that you don't let your ignorance get in the way of proposing changes to the game.
I was ignorant of the no import campaigns. But I have shown I am not ignorant of the possible problems of the passive training skill tree. But one thing I have learned from others posts is that the passive skill tree gives some people a sense of accomplishment for putting time into the game and that tells me that the argument could also be subjective to ones interest. Their was one Youtuber that put a video up ranting about the passive skill problem I don't want to link that hear because there was a lot of negative things he said about Crowfall that I don't agree with and i don't want to spread that negativity I'll let you search that up if you want. Their also were a few articles that called out this issue as well but I don't really want to push that negativity I just want you to know that other than my thoughts I have read up on what some might see as a problem for new players entering the game.

If you want to learn how to play the game better or learn more about it, then there are many of us who would be happy to help you
I don't disagree with this at all the community has answered many of my question and have been completely awesome but I was not concerned with learning i was concerned with the start of new campaigns and veterans versus newbies.

I fear that they are listening to these types of posts and, as a result, I feel compelled to voice a little stronger opposition than has been present in the forums up to this point.
This actually helps me to understand your passion and where you are coming form I see that your are protecting your ideal. So let me play out what I thought sounds like a cool ideal for my campaign.

For me I think it would be awesome if a new campaign started out with fresh characters no extra bonuses from passive training. These players would fight over resource nodes In an attempt to craft gear faster than the other factions. While this is happening low level characters are rushing to take up territory  all the while low level pvp is exploding over the world. Since things are equal at this point a player would not be worried about stronger players or guilds steamrolling. The PvP would be based more on hard core strategy than skill imbalance. The best thing I can contrast this ideal with is a moba but more long term. Every player starts on an even playing field and rushes to gain control and power. I think this sounds like a lot of fun and I see the passive training as something that will add a problem to that ideal.

A few other posters did share their passion of long term growth and I do understand and sympathize with those sentiments but if their is to be a true esporty campaign it would need to have no imports or passive skills based on the evidence I have shown.

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, bignick22000 said:

I am by all means not complaining at all just having a health discussion throwing out some ideas and seeing what other people think about it. And your tone is just extremely combative and a bit troll like. I'm assuming you mistook the meaning behind my post so i will try to explain myself a bit  better. Further more if you had read through the post you would have seen the evolution of my thought from other community members.

3-5 hours leveling fully and having advanced gear is really really pushing it for a new player. Can it be done? ya probably but a new player won't experience all those things in 3-5 hours.

"All of which put that solo player in a sufficient position to play for every aspect of the game"
t really doesn't, in advanced Common gear you might not get wreaked immediately like you would with out it but you are still getting smashed.  A few Friends of mine experienced this first hand many times(for disclaimer I'm going to just say i don't ahve a problem with that just using it as evidence against your point) The geared players really smash the common armor wearers. What you might be able to do is sit in the background of a group and throw shots hear and there and maybe some heals. And in common your are basically crossing your fingers hoping no one sees you gathering resources all while geared players are scouting around looking for those kills.

Further, you have no idea what "equal opportunity" means in the context of Crowfall.
Is this comment really necessary in a healthy debate? You jump to an extreme here for the sake of insult. This is cheep and makes you seem unhinged.

You're not advocating equality of opportunity, you're advocating for equality of outcome under the guise of opportunity because you know the former is a losing argument.
You make a claim her but back it up with no evidence further more you cite anything specifically  from my post leaving me to wounder what you are really having a problems with.

if you're going to propose changes to the game, then YOU MUST IDENTIFY THE PROBLEM THAT YOU'RE TRYING TO CURE.
I didn't say the game had a problem I was talking about an equity issue that has been brought up in Q&A's, forums, and on other Youtube channels. I don't think there is a problem with the game I am simply discussing what some might, and do see as an equity issue.

And I did state my issue clearly when I said:
"Passive training will make sure of this and if people can import items from spirit banks at the start of a new campaign it will further compound this problem."

I did learn that their will be no import campaigns some one corrected me on that and I was happy to hear it. But to say the Passive training won't cause an equity issue for new players is just silly. "However other community members have respectfully shared their views and I do understand from their point of view even if i disagree with them. But I am not going to go through and point that all out you can go back and read it if you like.

 

First, there is nothing in any of your posts articulating what specific imbalance you're arguing against.  Your recent reply only includes bonuses from the nodes of skill training, however HOW MUCH DOES THIS ACTUALLY AFFECT YOUR ABILITY TO WIN?  What is the present gear differential?  What is the present skill differential?  If catch-up mechanics are in the game, then can there even be much of a practical differential?  What specifically do these things mean to PvP outcomes?  You're proposing to cease basic functions of the game without any sort of data or other information.  I think you're reading far too much into the concept of passive skill training and not its actual implementation in the game.  Again, the issue is not whether or not passive skill training provides a benefit, let's agree that it does for the time being, the issue is how much this benefits a player in combat.

My proposition is that advanced gear + level 30 + a mount will allow you to participate in all aspects of PvP in Crowfall at the moment.  Advanced gear can be crafted by anyone with the new crafting disciplines.  However, it is not my burden to prove, given I am fine with the current mechanics.

Second, you're proposing equality of outcome and here's how: your proposal is to ensure that there aren't any different outcomes.  If hierarchies are to be punished, player skill (whether that be technical in game ability or social cooperation) to not be rewarded, time spent to be ignored, then the outcomes of playing will be eliminated.  If players don't carry anything into the next campaign, then there aren't any outcomes from playing...  Have you ever heard the saying, "they pretend to pay us, we pretend to work?"

Third, citing your friends losing battles while harvesting likely has nothing to do with a gear differential.  New players are incredibly quick to blame game mechanics, gear, passive training, and other aspects of the game for their failures before blaming themselves.  This game has a really, really steep learning curve.  And even when you learn enough to compete, you're still going to lose very frequently when you get nailed while harvesting.  Go look at Zybak's videos, he's nailing nubs and vets alike.  This is part of how combat inherently works in Crowfall.  Just as in life, if another person dictates the fight and has the jump on you and has any idea what they're doing, you're at a disadvantage.  There are people with builds specifically designed for ganking.  Do you have a build specifically designed for defense while harvesting?  Do you have people helping to protect you while you're exposed harvesting?  Are you running combat disciples or harvesting disciplines?  All of these things matter...  You might even consider trying to gank people to help learn ways of evading.  Again, this game has a very steep learning curve and it's precisely this complexity that the developers hope will keep people interested, but at the expense of new players complaining about basic game mechanics until they get the hang of things.   

 

Edited by Pycet
typo

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Pycet I think I really don't understand what you are trying to convey, we are talking but do not seem to be on the same page. When you said:

2 hours ago, Pycet said:

First, there is nothing in any of your posts articulating what specific imbalance you're arguing against.

This blows my mind that you do not see the power difference in character from a new account training tier 1 skills vs an account training tier 4 because I have clearly stated my argument with evidence as to  why I think it does and granted I'll admit this isn't tested and I didn't crunch the numbers but I don't think i need to do that to say their is a significant difference. And I don't think your mean "articulate" because you don't articulate evidence, you explain it, provide it, cite it but telling some one to articulate evidence is asking them to speak clearly.

2 hours ago, Pycet said:

Your recent reply only includes bonuses from the nodes of skill training

Yes I gave you the evidence you were asking for you just denied it.

.

2 hours ago, Pycet said:

HOW MUCH DOES THIS ACTUALLY AFFECT YOUR ABILITY TO WIN?  What is the present gear differential?  What is the present skill differential?

Ok this rebuttal is something we can talk about. Honestly I don't know the exact differential but I can say I crafted some advanced common gear trying to get some hit crit chance and I landed around 1% crit hit chance which is nothing compared to some one who is getting 3 crit hit chance modifiers as well as a 3% to a critical hit and remember I only added up the bonuses in the last two tiers for Ranged and long ranged bows only. If we had two players in advanced common gear and one had beginning tier passive training another and capped tier four training. the higher trained character is just going to win with those types of modifiers. If it didn't they would have to talk about catch up modifiers.

3 hours ago, Pycet said:

If catch-up mechanics are in the game, then can there even be much of a practical differential?

This really depends on how well the catch up mechanic works, how long it takes some one to catch up. And they only have the basic ideas for this and it sounds like they still might be hashing it out.

3 hours ago, Pycet said:

What specifically do these things mean to PvP outcomes?

Do you mean for an individual player or as a whole for the entire campaign?  Now If I was arguing the outcome for the entire campaign i would say this has no affect on the out come of the campaign since theoretically all factions could have the same number of newbies evening out the power levels. However, my concern is for the individual and not just the individual but what it means to have every one start and the same pace allowing newer players to stay on pare with advanced players. Not to mention this even keel start really changes the early game play of the mechanics.

3 hours ago, Pycet said:

You're proposing to cease basic functions of the game without any sort of data or other information.

I am not proposing to "cease basic functions" I'm suggesting that passive training is re-rolled every new campaign not stopped you can't just change my argument to make it look diabolical. And I have given you information and the data is in the skill tree to look at again saying I did not state information with out a counter argument is not how debates work.

3 hours ago, Pycet said:

I think you're reading far too much into the concept of passive skill training and not its actual implementation in the game. 

This might be true Pycet and if I am being honest with you I hope so I was going to try and chrunch some numbers to really understand that difference all i have to go in is other games and the difference in damage when I get an item that does +6% to crit hi chance, it makes a huge difference.

3 hours ago, Pycet said:

My proposition is that advanced gear + level 30 + a mount will allow you to participate in all aspects of PvP in Crowfall at the moment.  Advanced gear can be crafted by anyone with the new crafting disciplines.  However, it is not my burden to prove, given I am fine with the current mechanics.

Ok here is the hart of our argument and your right I don't know the exact numbers you got me,  but I didn't think a 9% hit crit chance and a 6% increase verses some one who doesn't have it was a debatable topic, it seems to be straight forward. In fact most people don't disagree that the passive trainings give a good amount of advantage versus some one who doesn't. If the passive skill training didn't make a difference their would be no need for make up mechanics.

 

And your idea that I have the "Burden of proof is not how this kind of debate works unless I missed this rule in the forums somewhere. And even if it was their are different levels of burden of proof such as

I have given you reasonable belief, reasonable evidence, some evidence, as well as substantial evidence. I think Pycet what it comes down to is that you really like the Passive training system and I have serious reservations about it. But to be honest the best posts that swayed me against my current idea where the people that symply stated the liked the idea of passive training becuase the glory of their character continued over. Some stated that if their was a hard reset on those skills they would simply stop playing. I empithise and understand that argument.

I don't think my argument is wrong or invalid and I provided why I think its not, my idea is just how I would prefer to play the game if I was making it so I simply thought I would share which is what these forums are all about. Your obviously not going to change your mind but I do understand why you want the passive skill training my objective was to at least try to get you to see my point.

 

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