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ACE Q&A for January - Official discussion thread

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1 minute ago, ren said:

Nope.  You?

My post was not about specifics of scoring mechanics, rather the scale of granularity of scoring differing between organizations and individuals.  While some factions/alliances/guilds may be satisfied with there lot and stop competing, some individuals may no be so inclined.

There's no suggestion Ive seen yet in conversations with friends that doesn't have giant custard holes in it.  It's a huge problem imo. 

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6 hours ago, Svenn said:

Well, the real question is what is the win condition for dregs? I mean, are we going to build our own keeps and then those start generating points? Are there going to be keeps/outposts/forts that guilds have to fight over (I hope not, the whole idea of dregs was building your own stuff and fighting over that)? It would be pretty disappointing if Dregs was basically the same thing as the faction campaigns.

Unless things have changed drastically, wouldn't win condition depend on the type of campaign? The current point scoring campaign is simply the easiest one...

That being said, the way parcels are designed now, I don't think it would be much of a stretch for player made structures to start generating points like the preplaced keeps we currently have. Each parcel has a set number of slots, so provided the value is set on a parcel basis you can just divide the points up proportionally to address player made bases. 

IE: A parcel can hold 2 forts and is worth 100 points. That means each fort is worth 50 points if/when its built. 

4 hours ago, mandalore said:

I think everybody agrees on that.  I cannot see how points will work in dregs if we are free building.  I don't see win conditions working either.  If you force people to stay when they are losing they will quit the game.  If you allow people to leave when they are losing you kill the campaigns and punish the winners with an empty server.  Once you begin to define winning conditions, somebody has to be the loser and weeks/months invested in a server to only lose over and over doesn't keep people playing.  Servers will stagnate and die the same way SB servers (with a few exceptions) did. 

See my comments above for free building... It seems like a simple leap from the existing pre-placed  to free building... 

If I remember right, one of their goals is to build campaign worlds automatically based on twisting knobs... So those knobs should be able to handle variable structures.

As for losers quitting, as someone who expects to be on the losing side regularly, I'll be in it for exported profit. Even if its a lower rate than if I won, it still is profit! But yeah... I can see people who are focused on the big picture leaving early.. (and that would certainly hinder my hunt for profit)

 

4 hours ago, mandalore said:

Do you think campaigns will go full term then?  If people can just lose and end it early if they are losing will really suck.  What if you're losing and don't want to forfeit but enough have left that you really have no choice.  What if you won the campaign early and theres no CW's that you can hope into and not be at a disadvantage bc yours ended early?  What to stop people from trading wins? 

I share this concern, as someone who expects to be on the losing side... Once the embargo system is in, its going to be really hard to continue on after a certain threshold leaves... 

I am very curious to see how they will handle scheduling of new campaigns in the future... I don't think its something we can even think about until we know what kind of player base there will be though... 

 

 

2 hours ago, ren said:

I liked the concept of rewards based on a leader board mentioned in a recent live stream.  That could apply to both guild and individual.  1st place might be locked up, but there could still be incentive for competition further down the board.

I like the leader board as well, so for me it serves no incentive or motivation until they decide how to handle crafters... 

Based on the way crafting is currently implemented they could give crafters points based on kills done with their weapons and deaths to those wearing their gear... (everything has a makers tag)... Of course that just raises the issue of how far down the component tree you trace it... Do you stop at the final crafter, or do you go all the way down to who harvested the original resources (assuming there is some sort of hidden harvested by tag)

Hopefully someone has better ideas than I do!

(And I'll send this now since there have been 2+ new replies so my comments may already be irrelevant)

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23 minutes ago, mandalore said:

There's no suggestion Ive seen yet in conversations with friends that doesn't have giant custard holes in it.  It's a huge problem imo. 

What sort of bad ideas have they come up with? I'm curious to hear. 

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59 minutes ago, ledeir said:

What sort of bad ideas have they come up with? I'm curious to hear. 

My friends or the dev team?  I can only speak for one, not the other. 

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1 hour ago, ledeir said:

What sort of bad ideas have they come up with? I'm curious to hear. 

For harvesters, how would you rank/score these players?

Harvester gathers resources and:

  • donates them directly to a community project.
  • gives them to a guildie, who donates them to a community project.
  • sells them within the campaign via a faction vendor
  • crafts them into gear for others
  • crafts them into gear for themselves
  • crafts them into gear for sale via a faction vendor
  • donates them to guild for guild use
  • sells them within the campaign via a cross-faction vendor
  • crafts them into gear for sale via a cross-faction vendor
  • is killed and looted
  • donates them to the guild, where they are later razed or pillaged.
  • holds them for export

Close all of those holes without igniting a flame war, and you've done yourself proud.

Edited by VaMei

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37 minutes ago, mandalore said:

My friends or the dev team?  I can only speak for one, not the other. 

LOL.

Your friends, didn't the devs already say they didn't know yet? ;)

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10 minutes ago, VaMei said:

For harvesters, how would you rank/score these players?

Harvester gathers resources and:

  • donates them directly to a community project.
  • gives them to a guildie, who donates them to a community project.
  • sells them within the campaign via a faction vendor
  • crafts them into gear for others
  • crafts them into gear for themselves
  • crafts them into gear for sale via a faction vendor
  • donates them to guild for guild use
  • sells them within the campaign via a cross-faction vendor
  • crafts them into gear for sale via a cross-faction vendor
  • is killed and looted
  • donates them to the guild, where they are later razed or pillaged.
  • holds them for export

Close all of those holes without igniting a flame war, and you've done yourself proud.

Definitely some hard holes to close.

Any solution would require some sort of "harvested by" tag to be added to the items. 

My opinion, which hopefully won't start any wars, is this:

- Add a tag to items for harvested by

- When the item is used for a same faction crafting project (which covers most of the bullet points), give them some amount of points.

- When resources are used for another faction, unless there is a non faction harvester leader board (such as I'd expect in the dregs), no points are gained. If there is a non faction score system, score as normal.

- Anything sold for personal profit, destroyed before being used, or exported grants zero points. You are keeping the points for yourself as opposed to contributing to a victory.

- Anything looted would have the harvested by field set to null. It was stolen and the killer already got points on the PVP leaderboard. 

Unless the goal of a campaign is to craft and deposit resources, I think both harvesters and crafters should have their own leaderboard not connected to winning.

The goal of harvested resources is to be used. When it is used to craft something is when the harvester should get points. 

The goal of crafted items is also to be used. When it is used to advance campaign objectives is when the crafter should get points. The easiest way I see is for weapons and worn gear should be tied to the player kills/death leaderboard. The part I haven't figured out is if rune tool makers should get any points... As a runesmith, I'm inclined to say no, but that's mainly because I think it complicates the loop too much.

That's my opinion, fire away! :)

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ok... two holes I see quickly.

I give the items to a friend who has recently given me 10,000g for a mushroom in an unrelated transaction. (It was a REALLY good mushroom ;))

Adding a Harvested By: tag would prevent items from stacking unless they were all sourced by the same player.

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2 hours ago, ledeir said:

Based on the way crafting is currently implemented they could give crafters points based on kills done with their weapons and deaths to those wearing their gear... (everything has a makers tag)...

I could exploit and grief the heck out of this. kills are linked to character skills and not equipment so this wont work anyway. I think the whole point system they have would work in a moba, not in crowfall. 

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9 minutes ago, mystafyi said:

I could exploit and grief the heck out of this. kills are linked to character skills and not equipment so this wont work anyway. I think the whole point system they have would work in a moba, not in crowfall. 

Way back in the SWG days, they had the idea that crafting XP would come from people using your stuff... Would have been cool, never happened.

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7 minutes ago, mystafyi said:

I could exploit and grief the heck out of this. kills are linked to character skills and not equipment so this wont work anyway. I think the whole point system they have would work in a moba, not in crowfall. 

Did you mean to say kills are linked to player skills as opposed to character skills? 

And I was just building off the existing system, they already track when a character kills another character... I say give the crafter whose gear is impacted points on a seperate leaderboard (which doesn't influence who wins the over all campaign)

I don't think it will encourage griefing any more than the existing system. After all the crafter of the victim will get the same amount of points. 

As for exploiting, yes, it can fairly easily be exploited by having someone with armor you made being killed by someone with a weapon you made... Its easy enough to make sure both characters aren't owned by the same account... but they'd need to address the possibility for abuse somehow. 

I'll also agree, a point system is more MOBA than Crowfall. 

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On 1/11/2019 at 6:45 PM, VaMei said:

ok... two holes I see quickly.

I give the items to a friend who has recently given me 10,000g for a mushroom in an unrelated transaction. (It was a REALLY good mushroom ;))

Adding a Harvested By: tag would prevent items from stacking unless they were all sourced by the same player.

Good points. I can think of engineering solutions to them though without seeing behind the curtain I don't know how viable they would be. 

For instance, we can treat gold as if it were a harvested resource (since technically it is at this point). Then it would simply be a matter of exchanging similarly tagged resources.

As for stacking, you can query a database and group by any field, so they should be able to tell stacks to ignore owner. Or the stack itself could have a harvestedby dictionary (programming variable type) which stores the number of each harvestedby tag before it was combined. Of course that requires a bit more magic on the back end.

 

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I'm a hardcore crafter and harvester 100%. I've read this post from beginning to end :). So if you will, with all that said, here is my 2 cents worth of input. If you can tag who harvested what during a campaign and keep a running tab on it, like keeping tabs on player kills(hint hint),  then why not assign points based on amounts and types gathered. Example: so end of camp Chaos harvested umpteen ash wood, they were the top harvester of that type of wood, across all 3 factions= (X) points for camp. You can do this for type and tier(colour). This could give pvper's more incentive to track  and/or hunt harvesters down. If possible, you could even keep track of individual harvesters this way, may even boost pvp more, by way of: "Oh look Next is top harvester for Chaos, okay boys lets find him"....maybe even assign bonus points for pvpers, if they managed to kill him. As for crafting?...that's a little harder. Maybe assign a point system to crafted items Example: basic craft 0 points, Intermediate items .25 points(4 make 1 point), advanced items: 1 point, then assign points based on tier/colour- Advanced legendary item is worth 15 points (1 for advanced 14 for legendary), Maybe even break it down further to avoid spam crafting. Example harvest potions worth 2 points, ambrosia worth 5, runic tools(based on colour) 7+ each, Legendary weapon made with legendary mats is 1000 points or some nonsense. So with the pvper score system you could add these 2 systems onto leaderboard. This could keep track of overall faction contributions in its many forms. Oh a thought just hit me...it would defeat the whole purpose of the pvp aspect if you could win a camp via harvest/craft(I can see the nerdrage now lol). So to avoid that issue, make the above suggestions a "sub value" to the pvp scoreboard. Example: every 1000 harvest/craft points equals 1 point to main score(the pvp one that dictates a win/lose).

   whelp that's my thunk for the day if I can think of anything else ill post. Thank you for the time it took for you all to read this.

 crowfall for life.....Chaos for life......Rumble Berry is coming and he is bringing his Roughnecks

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I think, as far as rewarding Crafting/Harvesting/healing/support players; they could have a counter on your vessel that measures each vessel's total harvested materials (of a specific type/total crafted (of a specific type)/total supported (Be it buffs, debuffs ect...)/total healed ect... kind've like how battlefield counts how many times you refilled someone's ammo, or how many times you resurrected people. 

Just a thought. 

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1 hour ago, OsirianLegacy said:

I think, as far as rewarding Crafting/Harvesting/healing/support players; they could have a counter on your vessel that measures each vessel's total harvested materials (of a specific type/total crafted (of a specific type)/total supported (Be it buffs, debuffs ect...)/total healed ect... kind've like how battlefield counts how many times you refilled someone's ammo, or how many times you resurrected people. 

Just a thought. 

So as a healer I could just heal somebody afk being attacked by spiders and generate points?  Spam buffs on an afk maco? 

Edited by mandalore

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On 1/14/2019 at 4:18 PM, mandalore said:

So as a healer I could just heal somebody afk being attacked by spiders and generate points?  Spam buffs on an afk maco? 

So as a supposed game design professional I know every single thing, of every single aspect, of each coherent system; of every power possible combination, within the complexity of Crowfall?

Get a hold of yourself, and instead of just shooting down every idea someone comes up with, instead build an idea up until it works!

How the heck do you think design works?

Do you think JTodd just comes up with an idea himself and throws it out there like "screw it its done first try"?

If we as a community stopped trying to tell people how their idea DOESN'T work, and instead try to figure out HOW they could, we'd be way further along in this discussion.

Edited by OsirianLegacy
Smartphones suck for typing paragraphs properly.

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10 hours ago, OsirianLegacy said:

So as a supposed game design professional I know every single thing, of every single aspect, of each coherent system; of every power possible combination, within the complexity of Crowfall?

Do I expect Blair or JTC to know everything on the top of their head?  Nope but I do expect them to have tools that allow them access to that info. 

 

10 hours ago, OsirianLegacy said:

Get a hold of yourself, and instead of just shooting down every idea someone comes up with, instead build an idea up until it works!

Bad ideas are bad.  If an idea can have holes easily popped in it then it needs to be reevaluated.  I'm a tester, I'm here to pop holes in poorly made socks, find bugs, give feed back, try to find exploits and in general break anything I can now so it's fixed before the masses exploit it into the ground.  We aren't here to white knight the dev teams every whim.  I give the team praise when they do well and I give them poorly made socks when they don't. 

 

 

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@mandalore I'll be honest, I was pretty drunk last night; and I acted out of hand. That being said, I have a few things that may fix the issues you described:

1. The players and NPC's all have their own character controllers; there *should* be a way for JTodd and Blair to limit spamming heals based on who dealt damage to the *player* character controller. For example:

- Hunger Cat(NPC Controller) deals 120 damage to *OsirianLegacy*(Player controller)

-Mandalore(Player Controller) Heals 120 HP to *OsirianLegacy*(Player Controller) - Somehow, I'm sure Unity could notate that the damage done would be from an NPC, not a player; thus not rewarding healing recovery on the campaign side of things.

Just to reiterate: This would count as NPC damage, and would not count towards the healing points received for the campaign if someone healed the damage dealt by the NPC controller, as it's not part of "The Throne War" 

Where as if for example:

*Mandalore*(Player Controller) Deals 120 damage to *OsirianLegacy* (Player Controller)

-Unity parses (probably the wrong term but whatever) this damage as *dealt by player controller*

-*Anhrez* (Player Controller) Heals 120 HP to *OsirianLegacy* (Player Controller)

- Unity parses this healing as *Healed damage dealt by player* 

This would effectively stop the ability to spam heals that don't contribute to the throne war. Could an enemy work with you to make you the best healer in the campaign? Sure, they could; but WHY? 

I also don't know if this would work in the Dregs if Friendly Fire was on. 

Anyways, perhaps we could discuss this more?

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I don't see why every single kill, node harvested, or piece of gear crafted has to be worth some kind of points. Just another arbitrary system telling players they're somehow better for doing X amount of things. 

Which X doesn't have an inherent value but what is placed on it. Killing 2 people afk, isn't the same as killing 1 with complete epics fighting in a bane. Yet the system will inherently value the first more. 

And if X pit fighter at the top of the leader boards gets consistently stomped by Y pit fighter who only cares to escort his friend farming?

That Arch Druid setting up bombs as his group fights and 1 shot finishes 2 groups coming through a bottleneck? The leader boards tries to quantify value in a very shallow way which I don't think can be fair or realistic to what people will be getting up to in this game. This is just more built in systems telling people how to play in a sandbox setting. 

Edited by Navystylz

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14 minutes ago, Navystylz said:

I don't see why every single kill, node harvested, or piece of gear crafted has to be worth some kind of points. Just another arbitrary system telling players they're somehow better for doing X amount of things. 

Which X doesn't have an inherent value but what is placed on it. Killing 2 people afk, isn't the same as killing 1 with complete epics fighting in a bane. Yet the system will inherently value the first more. 

And if X pit fighter at the top of the leader boards gets consistently stomped by Y pit fighter who only cares to escort his friend farming?

That Arch Druid setting up bombs as his group fights and 1 shot finishes 2 groups coming through a bottleneck? The leader boards tries to quantify value in a very shallow way which I don't think can be fair or realistic to what people will be getting up to in this game. This is just more built in systems telling people how to play in a sandbox setting. 

I agree with this and think that points measuring who’s winning instead of just letting somebody conquest the map is a poor system that won’t be able to quantify lots of play styles.  How does the leaderboard incorporate anything made in yesterday’s fluff news piece.  How are harvesters represented?  How are crafters? Leadership roles?  Scouts?  Cooks?  Healers?  Support chars (bards, siege specific characters, rune casters)?

 

Also, AF > Navy.  

Edited by mandalore
Military truth

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