Phr00t

Solution to armor discrepancies - Equalize HP?

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Right now, there are no penalties to equipping a higher armor class. You get more HP, more physical and elemental mitigations, with no extra addition to stamina use or any detrimental effects.

Combine this with the fact that higher armor classes generally come with more HP than the lower classes, and this just means that Plate is the de facto choice for armor if your spec is able to equip Plate.

 

Solution: Make armor more of a choice between Physical, Elemental or Organic mitigation, by equalizing bonus HP across all armor classes.

Make leather the choice that has higher Elemental Resistances, Mail for Organic and Plate for Physical. This would let players choose the armor set that would fill in their defensive layers. A Pitfighter that gets barraged constantly by spellcasters? They can choose to wear Leather armor, but won't be ungodly defensive against other melee. Or they can choose to wear plate and deal with caster damage in other ways.  

 

Examples below with quick numbers:

AC Class          Leather                Mail                 Plate
Physical              7.5%                  7.5%                   20%
Organic               7.5%                   20%                  7.5%
Elemental           20%                    7.5%                  7.5%
Total +HP           1500                   1500                1500

Edited by Phr00t

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The problem with this approach, which has been a problem with the game for a while, is that armor values are conflated with class design. The only thing that makes a knight a tank other than Block is that they can wear plate armor. If plate is no longer the best, then the knight (and to a lesser degree the templar) needs to be adjusted.

I would be fine with that If it meant that knights could get some sustain and not be so gear dependent.

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5 minutes ago, Arkade said:

The problem with this approach, which has been a problem with the game for a while, is that armor values are conflated with class design. The only thing that makes a knight a tank other than Block is that they can wear plate armor. If plate is no longer the best, then the knight (and to a lesser degree the templar) needs to be adjusted.

I would be fine with that If it meant that knights could get some sustain and not be so gear dependent.

 

In that case, bake in some more defensive layers to the class abilities and design, not to the armor. Does it make sense for a DPS spec that wears plate to be able to be as tanky as the tank-spec Knight?

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Pretty sure this used to be the case, and people hated it, or at least that's what I have been told.

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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Just now, KrakkenSmacken said:

Pretty sure this used to be the case, and people hated it, or at least that's what I have been told.

 

O it was god awful.  The problem with this is there are no incentives to build pure tanks and instead people just build tanky dps.  CC is overabundant so tanks can't specialize in that and even if they did there's too many options to get out of CC.  Con is a worthless stat at its current gains so tanks go str instead. 

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22 minutes ago, mandalore said:

O it was god awful.  The problem with this is there are no incentives to build pure tanks and instead people just build tanky dps.  CC is overabundant so tanks can't specialize in that and even if they did there's too many options to get out of CC.  Con is a worthless stat at its current gains so tanks go str instead. 

Ya. I much prefer the newer "tiered" approach where Plate > Mail > Leather. I think now it's more of a tuning issue so that the difference between them feels better, the gap is perhaps too wide at the moment.

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Just now, Darguth said:

Ya. I much prefer the newer "tiered" approach where Plate > Mail > Leather. I think now it's more of a tuning issue so that the difference between them feels better, the gap is perhaps too wide at the moment.

Perhaps you're right, the tuning feels way off right now

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Just now, Darguth said:

Ya. I much prefer the newer "tiered" approach where Plate > Mail > Leather. I think now it's more of a tuning issue so that the difference between them feels better, the gap is perhaps too wide at the moment.

There should be differences though as the rogue type chars all get leather and should be wary about getting caught in the front lines while plate users are built around it.  Some chars are good skirmishers, some are good seigers; this is by design. 

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Just now, mandalore said:

There should be differences though as the rogue type chars all get leather and should be wary about getting caught in the front lines while plate users are built around it.  Some chars are good skirmishers, some are good seigers; this is by design. 

Definitely agreed there should be differences. I think there's actually a plethora of knobs that need tuning when it comes to smoothing stat progression generally. Some of that may or may not be related to armor type tiers. Also, we're still quite early so I expect a lot of knobs to need tuning so I'm not overly concerned.

One big benefit, in my mind, of having tiered and gated armor types is the creation of recognizable character silhouettes. I can generally know by just a casual glance at a player's avatar how tough the target is.  If Knights could be just as tanky in leather as they are in plate, you lose that easy-to-recognize silhouette.

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Just now, Darguth said:

Definitely agreed there should be differences. I think there's actually a plethora of knobs that need tuning when it comes to smoothing stat progression generally. Some of that may or may not be related to armor type tiers. Also, we're still quite early so I expect a lot of knobs to need tuning so I'm not overly concerned.

One big benefit, in my mind, of having tiered and gated armor types is the creation of recognizable character silhouettes. I can generally know by just a casual glance at a player's avatar how tough the target is.  If Knights could be just as tanky in leather as they are in plate, you lose that easy-to-recognize silhouette.

But leather isn't as tanky as plate...

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24 minutes ago, Angelmar said:

HP should get shifted to classes or vessels or levels.

Getting more than 50% of your hp from gear is awkward.

LOL but con sucks too

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I think hitpoints could be the same across the board on armor.. But the mitigation should be better on mail and plate. 

normalizing hitpoints on armor totally works. 

or remove it  hitpoints from armor all together. 

Edited by dolmar

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1 hour ago, mandalore said:

But leather isn't as tanky as plate...

Right, and I was making a point in favor of keeping it that way. Rather than, as posters above suggested, making all armor types equally "tanky" but against different types of damage (i.e. Leather best against Elemental, Mail best against Organic, Plate best against Physical).

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Just now, Darguth said:

Right, and I was making a point in favor of keeping it that way. Rather than, as posters above suggested, making all armor types equally "tanky" but against different types of damage (i.e. Leather best against Elemental, Mail best against Organic, Plate best against Physical).

lol that was the first system and people rioted

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2 hours ago, Angelmar said:

HP should get shifted to classes or vessels or levels.

Getting more than 50% of your hp from gear is awkward.

Agree 100%.

Beyond that, having both HP AND mitigation fixed by the armor type is rather redundant. 

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10 minutes ago, VaMei said:

Agree 100%.

Beyond that, having both HP AND mitigation fixed by the armor type is rather redundant. 

Where would they out it that somebody else won't think it's better suited somewhere else. 

 

2 hours ago, Angelmar said:

HP should get shifted to classes or vessels or levels.

Getting more than 50% of your hp from gear is awkward.

I need better gear. 

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leather and mail also have dmg bonus where plate does not. Leather more so than mail.

You also have more dmg options on armor combination than defensive options (Crit defence is only tanky option) 

Edited by veeshan

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It seems I am not informed about past changes to the armor system as I only started in 5.8, but there are some good discussions in here anyway. I think most people would agree that there is a problem, but not necessarily the solution yet. Perhaps knobs just need to be tweaked.

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