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Dern

Templar talk.

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This forum has been very quiet, so I thought I'd make a post to get some discussion going amongst Templar enthusiasts.

 

Some questions for the crowd:

 

1) What do you like about the current class (please add what spec(s) you are referring to)

 

2) If there was one single function you could add to the class beyond it's current "role" of a zone controller, what would it be.  For the sake of a real discussion, let's keep this reasonable and try stray away from a functionality that another class clearly does better/more intentionally by design.  This is subjective, so basically please put some thought into your reply.  As an example, I really like the chain hook of knights, but if Templar had that ability it would be interfering with what knights bring to the table.

Edited by Dern

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Answering my own questions as an example:

 

1). I enjoy the tankiness, ability to do some damage while heading the group.  This refers mainly to the paladin spec line.  I have also tried Fury (CC) and it honestly feels like one of the most lacking specs in the game with lower damage, what I consider below-average CC ability, and also negligible healing output.  One of those categories should be stronger for the Fury spec.

 

2).  A suppress or "grapple" type of CC (immobilizing both yourself and Target) would be nice and fit into the zone control theme while also helping templar be more useful in open field/small scale fights.

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1: I like divine light on the paladin spec its pretty good in team fights 

2: make the other 2 specs of temp besides paladin be worth using cause currently theyre complete trash, and my biggest complaint it that TEMPLAR CANT USE SURGING SPIRIT OR DRYAD BUT CHAMP AND MYRM CAN 


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2 hours ago, Staff said:

1: I like divine light on the paladin spec its pretty good in team fights 

2: my biggest complaint it that TEMPLAR CANT USE SURGING SPIRIT OR DRYAD BUT CHAMP AND MYRM CAN 

Agreed!  Other 2 specs just lack an identity, period.

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I like the Vindicator promotion class, though I still have 1 talent point that I haven't spent because I haven't decided yet whether or not to buy Blazing Light. The big issue with it though is that the caps on bonus damage are set at 40% and it's ridiculously easy to blow past those caps.

I have 28% fire damage bonus just from talents. I get 9% from Fiery Perdition, 9% from Blazing Judgement and 10% from Vindicator. 

Vindicator also gives 10% slashing damage bonus and the Vindicator passive modifies my slashing damage bonus by my fire damage bonus, which means with just 3 talents and 1 passive, my slashing damage bonus is 38%.

Fiery Devotion buffs Devotion to give 15% fire damage bonus. I only get 12% of that though since it caps at 40%. Because of the Vindicator passive, that 15% also gives me slashing damage bonus, but I only get 2% because of the 40% cap. 

Warrior of Vengeance buffs Holy Warrior to add 30% slashing damage bonus while removing the max HP increase. Again, my slashing damage bonus is 38% without it, so I'm only getting 2% benefit from the talent instead of 30%. I've I'm using Devotion at the same time, I'm already capped and not getting anything from the talent.

Just the Vindicator talent/passive combined with Warrior of Vengeance puts me over the cap. The talent gives me 10% fire and 10% slashing. The passive gives me another 10% slashing. Warrior of Vengeance gives me 30% slashing, putting me 10% over the cap. This is an inherently flawed design. I don't know if they intended to give the spec that much damage and forgot about the caps or what, but something has to change. They need to have Vindicator increase the caps by a lot, change the damage bonuses to penetration, or remove some of the damage bonuses and gives the spec something else, because right now, most of the potential is wasted.

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/

On 1/16/2019 at 6:33 AM, Arkade said:

They need to have Vindicator increase the caps by a lot, change the damage bonuses to penetration, or remove some of the damage bonuses and gives the spec something else, because right now, most of the potential is wasted.

Good to know!  I haven't ran into many vindicators.

 

On a related note, which abilities of the templar do fire damage besides Divine light (without being modified eg the vindicator tree)

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Just now, Dern said:

/

Good to know!  I haven't ran into many vindicators.

 

On a related note, which abilities of the templar do fire damage besides Divine light (without being modified eg the vindicator tree)

I'm not sure. That might be the only one. I play a knight mostly, but have been playing around with Templar too. 

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When 5.8 first dropped Vindicator Templar was in a very strong place, too strong. Paladin too was very strong, and has actually only gotten stronger since then.
Vindicator Templar gave up that Healing from Divine Light for more Damage, and it showed.
While that made them dangerous, it also made them much more susceptible to danger themselves.
Even when  Vindicator was at it's height of power, more Templars were playing Paladin than Vindicator.
Of the people I play with only 1 other player besides myself was willing to give it a shot.

The biggest issue with Vindicator was Blazing Light. Vindicator gave up the Healing of Divine Light to get back the 'face melting' AoE.
Blazing Light was doing too much damage due to a bug that caused it to be doing both regular Divine Light damage as well as Blazing Light damage.
This was fixed lowering Blazing Light down by ~25%. But this fix was still not enough.
Even though there was video showcasing how Vindicator damage tapered off as Armor values came online and a single Paladin Divine Light Heal countered Blazing Light damage... even though video had been provided showing how organization and communication could counter and shut down Vindicators in larger fights Blazing Light was going to be hit with the ACE Nerf Sledgehammer.

Damage was further lowered and Blazing Light was altered to be calculated with the lower damage AoE values.
Blazing Light currently is the standard post nerf shell of its former self.
The damage isn't there anymore, which was really the reason to even try and bring/utilize them.


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I feel like fire damage should just be removed from the Templar kits in general, it seems to be stuck in a stage of incomplete development.  Especially since all of the Templar specializations give 10% fire damage bonus but realistically only vindicators get much use from it (but still encounter the previously mentioned issues).  Paladin gets the fire damage bonus but not the slashing damage bonus, which again seems misplaced.  I'll take the 10% slashing damage instead, please.

Edited by Dern

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I like the talk about Templar. From the get go 3 years ago when this whole opportunity on this game started Templar was my number 1 I was going to go with. I read up on the posts in here and I still wonder... fire? Why? Why not holy power? Just a thought is all.  No matter what this class as vindicator is extremely underpowered, I have watched myself hit with any type of sword attack to see my target in PVP NEVER EVER take any damage. Armor is screwed up and how it calculates into actual pvp environment.  The only damage the templar does at all from watching myself after big pvp battles is only blazing light which hits with horrible to no gear at 700-900 a tick. Which seams minimal from other abilities in the game. Shield slam from a knight with no gear comparable on testing does twice the damage. I do understand it is an AOE and the more that stand in it you obviously get allot more bang for the buck. But solo with a sword as your only other damage, very underwhelming.

Worst to date I have found and I am sure other templars had, to just even put our are damage and the AOE healing abilities I have had instances that I started the cast and died by the end of either. WAY WAY TOO LONG! It should be just an insta cast and the abilities start right away. No cast required unless you are going to slow other abilities and give them a cool down.

Just some thoughts.

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23 minutes ago, xerc said:

I like the talk about Templar. From the get go 3 years ago when this whole opportunity on this game started Templar was my number 1 I was going to go with. I read up on the posts in here and I still wonder... fire? Why? Why not holy power? Just a thought is all.  No matter what this class as vindicator is extremely underpowered, I have watched myself hit with any type of sword attack to see my target in PVP NEVER EVER take any damage. Armor is screwed up and how it calculates into actual pvp environment.  The only damage the templar does at all from watching myself after big pvp battles is only blazing light which hits with horrible to no gear at 700-900 a tick. Which seams minimal from other abilities in the game. Shield slam from a knight with no gear comparable on testing does twice the damage. I do understand it is an AOE and the more that stand in it you obviously get allot more bang for the buck. But solo with a sword as your only other damage, very underwhelming.

Worst to date I have found and I am sure other templars had, to just even put our are damage and the AOE healing abilities I have had instances that I started the cast and died by the end of either. WAY WAY TOO LONG! It should be just an insta cast and the abilities start right away. No cast required unless you are going to slow other abilities and give them a cool down.

Just some thoughts.

Um, what? Shield Slam is one of the weakest abilities in the game. Just for laughs, I logged into the TEST server and used Shield Slam on a training dummy. I charged it to 100% for max damage and guaranteed crit. 254 damage.

The reason it's not holy power is because holy power can't be mitigated. You have Holy Warrior for that to convert all your damage to Holy Damage for a time. 

Having both fire and slashing is good because it's not as easy to counter your damage. 

If you didn't do any damage to the target, they probably had a barrier. Militant Mage gives a barrier that completely blocks slashing damage.

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4 hours ago, xerc said:

I like the talk about Templar. From the get go 3 years ago when this whole opportunity on this game started Templar was my number 1 I was going to go with. I read up on the posts in here and I still wonder... fire? Why? Why not holy power? Just a thought is all.  No matter what this class as vindicator is extremely underpowered, I have watched myself hit with any type of sword attack to see my target in PVP NEVER EVER take any damage. Armor is screwed up and how it calculates into actual pvp environment.  The only damage the templar does at all from watching myself after big pvp battles is only blazing light which hits with horrible to no gear at 700-900 a tick. Which seams minimal from other abilities in the game. Shield slam from a knight with no gear comparable on testing does twice the damage. I do understand it is an AOE and the more that stand in it you obviously get allot more bang for the buck. But solo with a sword as your only other damage, very underwhelming.

Worst to date I have found and I am sure other templars had, to just even put our are damage and the AOE healing abilities I have had instances that I started the cast and died by the end of either. WAY WAY TOO LONG! It should be just an insta cast and the abilities start right away. No cast required unless you are going to slow other abilities and give them a cool down.

Just some thoughts.

You have to remember other than militant mage a lot of people are playing broken classes.  Plate Confessors who can basically be immune to melee , militant mage which blocks slashing , Multi invulns from champs , range can basically kite us. Templars have the 2 most easily blocked damage types but there are ways around this.  You could always slot poisoner in to make your slashing attacks be poison damage.  Shield breaker for barriers  or standard bearer so you can flip to electric damage.   The Vindicator  & Fury line do need work though.  Giving up healing needs a bigger trade off.

If you've died before dropping your AOE for healing(if you're not a paladin healing is garbage) or DPS then its most likely due to someone having a broken class or primed broken abilities.  On top of your gear being of lower quality.  There's a lot of stuff broken with scaling currently and sporting nearly 40% resistance not counting all my bonus armors etc I can be hit for 3500 on a crit while in plate & 1.7k on other abilities.  5.8.1 will start addressing some of the broken damage.  Also you can animation break our abilities by just parrying. The other day I took 6.4k damage in 1s from one person in 2 moves.  So I wouldn't worry to much until more balancing comes around.

1st Thing I would love to see fixed with the class itself though is the censure to be switched to a ground based small aoe for the stun.  There's to many times ill skip off someones head and get launched further, ricochet off the target , or watch it impact and not do any damage or stun.  That small change I believe would help a ton.

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14 hours ago, MrErad said:

You have to remember other than militant mage a lot of people are playing broken classes.  Plate Confessors who can basically be immune to melee , militant mage which blocks slashing , Multi invulns from champs , range can basically kite us. Templars have the 2 most easily blocked damage types but there are ways around this.  You could always slot poisoner in to make your slashing attacks be poison damage.  Shield breaker for barriers  or standard bearer so you can flip to electric damage.   The Vindicator  & Fury line do need work though.  Giving up healing needs a bigger trade off.

If you've died before dropping your AOE for healing(if you're not a paladin healing is garbage) or DPS then its most likely due to someone having a broken class or primed broken abilities.  On top of your gear being of lower quality.  There's a lot of stuff broken with scaling currently and sporting nearly 40% resistance not counting all my bonus armors etc I can be hit for 3500 on a crit while in plate & 1.7k on other abilities.  5.8.1 will start addressing some of the broken damage.  Also you can animation break our abilities by just parrying. The other day I took 6.4k damage in 1s from one person in 2 moves.  So I wouldn't worry to much until more balancing comes around.

1st Thing I would love to see fixed with the class itself though is the censure to be switched to a ground based small aoe for the stun.  There's to many times ill skip off someones head and get launched further, ricochet off the target , or watch it impact and not do any damage or stun.  That small change I believe would help a ton.

I agree that censure should be looked into. I've experienced both the apparent hit into non-stun as well as the obvious hit into stun that launched me further away from the target.

Good fight the other day MrErad. One of these days I'll come at you with some decent gear! (....I hope your gear is decent)

 

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My gear isn't to bad. I'm in a blue vessel that could have used more upgrades in it & using a green sword with support power.   The armor is just a common white set that my blacksmith made me so its nothing special.   It was a good fight hopefully we'll see more Templars because I find the class just as fun as my leather confessor.

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On 12/01/2019 at 6:56 AM, Dern said:

Answering my own questions as an example:

 

1). I enjoy the tankiness, ability to do some damage while heading the group.  This refers mainly to the paladin spec line.  I have also tried Fury (CC) and it honestly feels like one of the most lacking specs in the game with lower damage, what I consider below-average CC ability, and also negligible healing output.  One of those categories should be stronger for the Fury spec.

 

2).  A suppress or "grapple" type of CC (immobilizing both yourself and Target) would be nice and fit into the zone control theme while also helping templar be more useful in open field/small scale fights.

All CC spec lack luster atm they all have low dmg due to them having CC capability, however anti CC skill are super broken atm so CC classes have no real place due to you can just E out of it for basicly eternity.


Veeshan Midst of UXA

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I wonder how the fury line would play if it mimic'd the clerics CC line. Where it gets some support power but not like the main healing line this way it can act as an off healer with CC abilities.

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18 hours ago, MrErad said:

I wonder how the fury line would play if it mimic'd the clerics CC line. Where it gets some support power but not like the main healing line this way it can act as an off healer with CC abilities.

I think this would be appropriate as well.  Also, change the Fury passive (max hp per CC).  Just doesn't seem to fit that cc line, plus it doesn't heal up that hp.  Rather it give like +200 support power per enemy CC'd recently.

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5 minutes ago, Dern said:

I think this would be appropriate as well.  Also, change the Fury passive (max hp per CC).  Just doesn't seem to fit that cc line, plus it doesn't heal up that hp.  Rather it give like +200 support power per enemy CC'd recently.

The cleric is at its baseline a healer with three specs that alter how it does that or what it even is (radical).  The templar is at its core a tank that can become less of a tank to choose to become dps or a healer but still needs a viable tank spec.  The Fury isn't cutting it as designed but making it a subpar healer isn't going to fix it's poor tanking and disruption skills.  


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

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The Adjudicator (discipline) had its classes of 'templar' removed.

Crap like this make zero sense! Confessors nor Templars can use it. Thematically could fit on Cleric. Gives one ability that's just a subpar damage that no one is going to take just to have an unmitigated hit. And then an ability that would be amazing on a Templar.

They half-ass put stuff in that is supposed to make people think of group comps that could work well together. Give Templars Devotion just in case they are running with a Confessoro so Confessors can get some play off that sin it builds up, because there is NOTHING they can do with sin inherently.

Give classes access to a sin spender who can't generate sin as if people are going waste a major discipline slot on taking Adjudicator.

The more you play this game, the more shallow you realize builds are in this game. All classes have 1 or 2 worthless promote specs. Disciplines are very gimmicky, broken or make no sense who can actually use them. A lot of classes have little choice because the abilities granted by the disc makes no sense for you build, or completely breaks class abilities by having that disc on.

This class powers and discipline pass needs to make changes by bounds or I doubt it will be worth playing long term. Or they need to stop pretending their disc system will do anything meaningful to change Arch Druid A from Arch Druid B, and move more diversity into the specs themselves.

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I specced Fury knowing a respec was coming soon.

The main problem is divine light sucking down all my pips in exchange for very mediocre healing. Get rid of the pip requirement entirely. Maybe base the strength of the healing on how many pips you have, but for the love of Maleki leave yur damn mits off mah pips.

The other two specs don't get clobbered by this, one gets a talent to remove it, and the other removes the healing (and presumably it's pip drain) altogether.

More General Templar issues:

1) Parry would be great as a normal ability but is useless when you are forced to give up a huge portion of your mobility for it. Especially in light of #2

2) Our leap is pretty much impossible to hit with unless your target is afk, and can lead to wildly different results based on the quirks of in game physics. If your target is running away from you the vast majority of the time you bump backwards off of them and then the ability gets triggered, missing them because they kept on moving.

3) We are the only defensive pip-based class. We need to have access to a passive that gives us a chance at generating a pip when hit. One missed swing can leave you in a pip-hole and lose an entire fight, even at the very beginning.

 

 

Edited by Stubbs

   

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