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Cosian

Are we really ready for an extended 'sanctioned' campaign?

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I don’t see points being tracked working, ever.  You’re leaving too much in the control of the community and we will custard our selves out of fun in order to win. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

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13 hours ago, mandalore said:

I don’t see points being tracked working, ever.  You’re leaving too much in the control of the community and we will custard our selves out of fun in order to win. 

Given from many of your posts you are pretty focused on a single game rule set, that being hard core GVG mod.  So lets focus on that.  I guess if you take points out of the equation you would advocate something like as soon as a guild does not control any points they either swear fealty to another guild or they are out of the game.  The campaign continues until 1 guild, along with their vassals, control every position on all maps, or perhaps x% of all positions.  And frankly I like that.  It is not about point ticks but actually taking and holding positions on the map.

But that said, unless they also incorporate some kind position linking on the maps I think the tendency will be to continue to take the most points you can with the least amount of effort.  Or said another way, fight avoidance as opposed to creating good fights.  So unless they create some choke points I do not think it will matter if you do point ticks or positional control.


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I don’t see it working for any format.  I don’t see it working as intended in factions and I don’t see it working in dregs.  The whole point system needs something tying it together.  

If you try to do points in the same system as dregs as you factions you’re going to chase all those Sb players away with the quickness.  They want meaningful fights, territory control, alliances, betrayals free building of assets.  They don’t want to play some meta game about tracking points, they want to actually defeat their enemies.  They want to take their assets, chase them from their lands, break their gear, bathe in their tears; they want to win. 

Edited by mandalore

40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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1 hour ago, mandalore said:

I don’t see it working for any format.  I don’t see it working as intended in factions and I don’t see it working in dregs.  The whole point system needs something tying it together.  

If you try to do points in the same system as dregs as you factions you’re going to chase all those Sb players away with the quickness.  They want meaningful fights, territory control, alliances, betrayals free building of assets.  They don’t want to play some meta game about tracking points, they want to actually defeat their enemies.  They want to take their assets, chase them from their lands, break their gear, bathe in their tears; they want to win. 

You sound like CN--and I know you commented on another post before mentioning them, as 'us'. Don't think most Shadowbane players are trying to break anyone's spirit in a video game. Taking whole maps, and holding them, necessitates your guild growing into a zerg. I doubt most guilds want to be zerg guilds.  In fact, ones I've talked to would like to not be big at all. 

This idea that just because campaigns will have an end game, means you can kick guilds from the campaign and be the last one left standing, to start a new one and do it all over again can't function in reality. Kicking people from campaigns early because they didn't make the cut will ensure those people won't play that kind of campaign. Who wants to end a campaign early and be locked out from playing while the guilds who got ahead continue to get to play the game? No one. As cool as it sounds, I guaranteed if you aren't one of the guilds consistently making it to the end, you won't be playing that campaign. I already posted extensively on this already, though. So I'm not going to rehash all the issues with this kind of ruleset and how most not only won't keep participating, but goes against the very design philosophies this game was meant to combat.

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1 hour ago, Navystylz said:

You sound like CN--and I know you commented on another post before mentioning them, as 'us'. Don't think most Shadowbane players are trying to break anyone's spirit in a video game. Taking whole maps, and holding them, necessitates your guild growing into a zerg. I doubt most guilds want to be zerg guilds.  In fact, ones I've talked to would like to not be big at all. 

This idea that just because campaigns will have an end game, means you can kick guilds from the campaign and be the last one left standing, to start a new one and do it all over again can't function in reality. Kicking people from campaigns early because they didn't make the cut will ensure those people won't play that kind of campaign. Who wants to end a campaign early and be locked out from playing while the guilds who got ahead continue to get to play the game? No one. As cool as it sounds, I guaranteed if you aren't one of the guilds consistently making it to the end, you won't be playing that campaign. I already posted extensively on this already, though. So I'm not going to rehash all the issues with this kind of ruleset and how most not only won't keep participating, but goes against the very design philosophies this game was meant to combat.

You sound like somebody that is willing to lose and be okay with it.  I plan to win, by whatever LOAC/ROE @soulein sets for us.  

As for kicking people, I agree that it will fail.  Any point scoring system is going to fail imo.  My whole argument is I don’t think them creating arbitrary win conditions will work; if they don’t allow us to win by actually winning then it won’t work.  


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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33 minutes ago, mandalore said:

You sound like somebody that is willing to lose and be okay with it.  I plan to win, by whatever LOAC/ROE @soulein sets for us.  

As for kicking people, I agree that it will fail.  Any point scoring system is going to fail imo.  My whole argument is I don’t think them creating arbitrary win conditions will work; if they don’t allow us to win by actually winning then it won’t work.  

Wanting to win and knowing you can't always win aren't the same thing. But I agree with the rest. It's needs to be player determined, not a system.

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On 1/13/2019 at 2:10 PM, Navystylz said:

 Kicking people from campaigns early because they didn't make the cut will ensure those people won't play that kind of campaign. Who wants to end a campaign early and be locked out from playing while the guilds who got ahead continue to get to play the game? No one. As cool as it sounds, I guaranteed if you aren't one of the guilds consistently making it to the end, you won't be playing...

People dont want to be eliminated in BR games either but they are, and it usually motivates people to work harder. To get faster, to change the strategy or class or teams.

Do you have a guild? I do. We play NA chaos and we've been losing every single campaign by a lot. People are posting here that my guild is dead and disbanded. We decided not to stand in circles for points. We dont want the victory points. We have been cobbling together small groups and fighting (usually)outnumbered every night for weeks. Morale has been low but our core guys persevered and refined our specs. We won our share of field fights and had a blast playing our own game. Ignoring the rules and crafting in EK's. Sorry new chaos players, we didn't want to play for points. We didn't want to break our charter and mass recruit to inflate our ranks in order to play pre alpha crowfall 5.8 live.

Then this campaign we said f it and decided to give it a shot, lets play for points. You know what? Chaos players started showing up. We've been ahead on points almost the entire campaign. Last night both factions sieged our keep simultaneously and you know what? We defended. It was glorious.

It takes a different player for this game, it's not built for the solo player. They are trying to make factions work because that provides ACE the best testing environment. If your guild gets smoked out of an elimination style dregs campaign rule set it will get stronger or disband and nature will take its course. If you are part of a legacy guild that has been through multiple games, you already know how this works.

This is an niche game, the dev's arent building for the masses. Lets not try to hold them to that standard

Edited by Chroma

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2 minutes ago, Chroma said:

People dont want to be eliminated in BR games either but they are, and it usually motivates people to work harder. To get faster, to change the strategy or class or teams.

Do you have a guild? I do. We play NA chaos and we've been losing every single campaign by a lot. People are posting here that my guild is dead and disbanded. We decided not to stand in circles for points. We dont want the victory points. We have been cobbling together small groups and fighting (usually)outnumbered every night for weeks. Morale has been low but our core guys persevered and refined our specs. We won our share of field fights and had a blast playing our own game. Ignoring the rules and crafting in EK's. Sorry new chaos players, we didn't want to play for points. We didn't want to break our charter and mass recruit to inflate our ranks in order to play pre alpha crowfall 5.8 live.

Then this campaign we said f it and decided to give it a shot, you know what? Chaos players started showing up. We've been ahead on points almost the entire campaign. Last night both factions sieged our keep simultaneously and you know what? We defended. It was glorious.

It takes a different player for this game, it's not built for the solo player. They are trying to make factions work because that provides ACE the best testing environment. If your guild gets smoked out of an elimination style dregs campaign rule set it will get stronger or disband and nature will take its course. If you are part of a legacy guild that has been through multiple games, you already know how this works.

This is an niche game, the dev's arent building for the masses. Lets not try to hold them to that standard

Your whole post is prime example of what I'm talking about, lmao. 

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On 1/13/2019 at 2:10 PM, Navystylz said:

This idea that just because campaigns will have an end game, means you can kick guilds from the campaign and be the last one left standing, to start a new one and do it all over again can't function in reality.

Millions of people play moba and br games.

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6 minutes ago, Navystylz said:

Your whole post is prime example of what I'm talking about, lmao. 

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or serious.  Elaborate? 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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10 minutes ago, Chroma said:

People dont want to be eliminated in BR games either but they are, and it usually motivates people to work harder. To get faster, to change the strategy or class or teams.

Do you have a guild? I do. We play NA chaos and we've been losing every single campaign by a lot. People are posting here that my guild is dead and disbanded. We decided not to stand in circles for points. We dont want the victory points. We have been cobbling together small groups and fighting (usually)outnumbered every night for weeks. Morale has been low but our core guys persevered and refined our specs. We won our share of field fights and had a blast playing our own game. Ignoring the rules and crafting in EK's. Sorry new chaos players, we didn't want to play for points. We didn't want to break our charter and mass recruit to inflate our ranks in order to play pre alpha crowfall 5.8 live.

Then this campaign we said f it and decided to give it a shot, lets play for points. You know what? Chaos players started showing up. We've been ahead on points almost the entire campaign. Last night both factions sieged our keep simultaneously and you know what? We defended. It was glorious.

It takes a different player for this game, it's not built for the solo player. They are trying to make factions work because that provides ACE the best testing environment. If your guild gets smoked out of an elimination style dregs campaign rule set it will get stronger or disband and nature will take its course. If you are part of a legacy guild that has been through multiple games, you already know how this works.

This is an niche game, the dev's arent building for the masses. Lets not try to hold them to that standard

Good for UDL!  I do enjoy giving Unfolded a hard time, don't take that away from me. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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Just now, mandalore said:

Good for UDL!  I do enjoy giving Unfolded a hard time, don't take that away from me. 

I'll help you

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On 1/13/2019 at 3:11 PM, mandalore said:

I don’t see it working for any format.  I don’t see it working as intended in factions and I don’t see it working in dregs.  The whole point system needs something tying it together.  

If you try to do points in the same system as dregs as you factions you’re going to chase all those Sb players away with the quickness.  They want meaningful fights, territory control, alliances, betrayals free building of assets.  They don’t want to play some meta game about tracking points, they want to actually defeat their enemies.  They want to take their assets, chase them from their lands, break their gear, bathe in their tears; they want to win. 

Would you say they want to play to crush?

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Just now, yianni said:

Would you say they want to play to crush?

No, they want to "play to calculate and eventually score points needed to win" but it just doesn't roll off the tongue. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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4 hours ago, mandalore said:

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or serious.  Elaborate? 

1. This is an MMO, not a Battle Royale. You get eliminated in BR and you are back in a complete new game in minutes. If you'd get eliminated here it would be weeks or months. You guys can't honestly think 50 camapigns full of people to populate them will be rolling so you can just hop into a new one. And if by some miracle there is, where is the MMO in that? Well, lasted a week in that one; accomplished so much?

 

2. Then the rest of the posts explains in detail what I have said already. Maybe a guild doesn't care about the score. Maybe they want to do something else.

"We didn't want to play for points." But they 'were' playing. When they decided to "play for points", they weren't already eliminated because they were doing their own thing until then. Wouldn't have happened if they were just kicked off the campaign already. Ya, these last days, the real ones would be months. If you want to take a break from just one type of PvP in campaign and do another, shouldn't mean you are removed from the campaign. Players should decide, not programming.

Edited by Navystylz

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24 minutes ago, Navystylz said:

1. This is an MMO, not a Battle Royale. You get eliminated in BR and you are back in a complete new game in minutes. If you'd get eliminated here it would be weekend or months. You guys can't honestly think 50 camapigns full of people to populate them will be rolling so you can just hop into a new one. And if by some miracle where is the MMO in that? Well, lasted a week in that one accomplished so much?

 

2. Then the rest of the posts explains in detail what I have said already. Maybe a guild doesn't care about the score. Maybe they want to do something else.

"We didn't want to play for points." But they 'were' playing. When they decided to "play for points", they weren't already eliminated because they were doing their own thing until then. Wouldn't have happened if they were just kicked off the campaign already. Ya, these last days, the real ones would be months. If you want to take a break from just one type of PvP in campaign and do another, shouldn't mean you are removed from the campaign. Players should decide, not programming.

O well I agree with everything here but your forum name.  Air Force is clearly and obviously better. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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One thing you can do is....

Divide the points earned by the amount of players that logged in. = real score.

So if a faction has 40 less different players log in during the campaign, then their amount of points would needed to be less to win the campaign.

SOLVED!


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On 1/15/2019 at 1:11 PM, Navystylz said:

1. This is an MMO, not a Battle Royale. You get eliminated in BR and you are back in a complete new game in minutes. If you'd get eliminated here it would be weeks or months. You guys can't honestly think 50 camapigns full of people to populate them will be rolling so you can just hop into a new one. And if by some miracle there is, where is the MMO in that? Well, lasted a week in that one; accomplished so much?

 

This is the point of the campaigns, right? Evolving rulesets, experemental stuff, turning knobs, and shaking stuff up. The ruleset details are pretty vague except we know about factions and dregs. We know that several campaigns will be running concurrently.You are assuming that it will be weeks or months if your guild is eliminated but we don't know and I suspect it will not. There isn't enough information to say no that won't work.

To clear the air, I also agree with most of what you are saying. I agree completely that the players should decide. Thats why we didn't want to play for points, thats why so many SB vets are vocal about the points system, it sucks. (Back in our day...) we don't need points do determine a winner based on pre set conditions. You don't lose until you quit. If you piss off the server and get pushed out to a tiny Island in the middle of the ocean and have to live like hermits (opp anyone?) thats your hand, you get to play it. Reroll,disband, join another guild, suck it up and find a way to make it fun. Play to crush, Own the economy, control the most valuable resources, be mercs, be a jerk andinterrupt other peoples sieges. We all remember.

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On 1/12/2019 at 2:42 PM, Unfolded said:

Because it's a boring, broken game right now. lol

Same thing every night.. 8:30 central siege, after that, farm resources or souls. Was more fun without the scheduled content.

Good point on the central siege timer. I actually agree with the idea of removing this type of scheduled content. LOTS of other scheduled content that should exist in my opinion though. It should be possible to initiate a siege on a strategic calendar, even if it had start/stop limitations on the timing to keep people from setting sieges to happen in the middle of the night on an NA server for instance.

I'm impressed with how LESS broken this game gets each month, and for a game still in Alpha, good on em.

 

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