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Arkade

State of the Knight 5.8

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I'm not going to delve too heavily into the promotion classes. The issues regarding CC specs are known, and it's pretty much acknowledged at this point by anyone who plays a knight that the Swordsman spec is the best of the three while Secutor is the worst. This post is going to focus more on the core knight design and its role as a tank.

There are 3 tank classes in Crowfall: Knight, Templar and Myrmidon. Tanks are supposed to be able to soak up damage, and each of these classes does it in different ways.

How the tanks tank:

Myrmidons can wear mail armor and have two different abilities which can provide healing: Berserk and Vengeance. Their final mitigation is capped at 50% by default. Strangely, the Battle Rager promotion increases their final mitigation cap by 25%, but doesn't enable them to wear plate armor.

Templars can wear plate armor and have a 65% final mitigation cap by default. The Paladin promotion can raise that cap by another 25%. Templars also have Righteous Stand, which gives them immunity to CC and damage mitigation for a single attack, and triggers Righteous Parry if successful, which does good damage and knocks the target down. They also have healing via Devotion and Divine Light. Both of these abilities heal the entire group if they are within range.

Knights can wear plate armor and have a 65% final mitigation cap by default. They can increase that cap by 10% via the Secutor promotion. Knight's also have Block, which mitigates incoming damage by 50% (after all other mitigation and damage is calculated, I think), but that can be increased to 70% via talents. Block also prevents CC and can be maintained as long as the knight has stamina. There are talents/disciplines which improve the stamina usage. Knights also have a barrier via Noble Blood. The tooltip doesn't say how much it's for, but last I heard it was 500 HP.

Healing vs Armor

Basically, we have 2 types of mitigation, healing and armor, and healing is vastly superior for several reasons. First, healing isn't specific to any damage type. It doesn't matter what type of damage you get hit by, whether it's bleed, poison, piercing or even holy damage. Armor, on the other hand, it very dependent on damage type. Every class can get 18% armor bonus for physical, elemental and organic via the skill trees. AFAIK, Rangers are the only class that has a talent for bleed armor bonus.

Knights have talents that give them up to 11% physical armor bonus. Plate armor can be crafted to give a balance across all 3 major types, or it can be crafted to give a larger boost in 1 major type and lower amounts in the other 2. Armor will never be as good as healing for all 3 major damage groups, and it will never be able to mitigate bleed or holy damage. Constitution provides some bleed mitigation, but the numbers are so small that it's irrelevant.

Second, healing can be used to replenish lost HP, whether the target is getting hit or not, at least for the Templar. The Myrms heals don't allow him to go past what he started with. Armor mitigation can only reduce the amount of HP lost when hit. It can't give you HP back.

And third, healing is less dependent on gear. Yes, good gear will improve the heals in many cases, but a naked Myrmidon using Berserk will heal the same regardless (assuming they don't miss their crash). A naked Knight has no defense other than Noble Blood and Block. A large part of armor mitigation is designed to come from armor rather than buffs/bonuses, which I will talk about more in a later section.

The only heal knights have is the Resolve passive. This passive can only activate once every 90 seconds and it only activates when the knight's HP drops below 20%. If you drop below 20% and it's on cooldown, you're out of luck. Even if it comes off cooldown, if you are already below 20%, you are out of luck. It only activates when you drop below 20%. As such, it isn't reliable. It will save you for a few seconds, but that's about it. It doesn't come close to the kind of sustain that other classes have.

Counters

Healing can be countered to a degree with certain abilities. These abilities either reduce healing effectiveness by a percentage, or they require the target to heal a certain amount before seeing any benefit from their heals. CC prevents healing for the most part (DoTs will still run), but it's not possible to keep someone locked down with the way Retaliate and CC immunity works.

Armor can be bypassed in many ways. First, there are abilities that reduce armor mitigation by a percentage. Brutal Slam, for example, from the Shield Fighter discipline, or Centaur's Wild Charge. Both say they reduce physical armor, not that they increase armor penetration, which is an important distinction due to "Blair math".

Armor can be bypassed by Templars via Holy Warrior, or by anyone using Standard Bearer to change the entire group's damage to Electric. Not so good for the knight who stacked physical armor.

Block and Noble Blood can both be countered via Shield Breaker. Our best defense is easily turned into a liability by one discipline. Even if we don't use Block, we have to use Noble Blood to get to Oath of Will. Yes, Shield Breaker affects Righteous Stand too, but Templars have heals in addition to their armor.

Block and Noble Blood

Speaking of Block, it's of concern how it works against DoTs. AFAIK, it doesn't. I know in the past that Rend DoTs have been applied in full through Block. I assume that poison and disease DoTs work the same way. Block only affects direct damage. If this is inaccurate and Block reduces the effectiveness of DoTs, please let me know.

Block also makes the Knight immobile. Yes, we can move while blocking, but it's very slow. We also can't do anything else while we are blocking. Meanwhile, the Myrmidon is free to run around and do damage while under the effects of Berserk or Vengeance, and the Templar does damage and healing with Divine Light, can move within its radius, and also has complete freedom of movement while under the effects of Devotion.

Noble Blood does not scale, nor does, I assume, the barrier that Secutors get on Pursuit. What good is the 500 HP barrier from Noble Blood when people are hitting me for that much or more with basic attacks? The changes to advanced weapons will help, but it doesn't change the fact that most barriers don't scale.

Armor Caps

There are two different caps on armor. The first is the Armor Bonus Cap, which is set to 35% for all classes, for all mitigation types (except for Holy which can never be mitigated by armor). Armor Bonus comes from a variety of sources, including dexterity, skills, talents, gear, abilities and passives.

The second cap is the Final Mitigation Cap, as I noted in the first section above. All 3 tanks have the potential to increase these caps to 75%, or higher in the case of Templar. Both the Knight and Templar start with 65% by default, and the Myrmidon starts with 50%. The Final Mitigation Caps include your chest armor values and whatever you get from Armor Bonuses, which is capped at 35%. In order to reach the final cap, a knight will need to get 30% from his chestplate (or 40% for a Secutor). 

It is ridiculously easy for a knight to cap Physical Armor Bonus. 18% from skills plus 11% from talents gives 29% total. That only leaves 6% beneath the cap. If you decide to make a guinecean knight and run a dex build with 300 dex, that's another 3% used up. Let's say you also decide to take the Rune Caster Discipline. The Sanctuary ability gives 20% armor bonus to the group, but you're only getting 3% physical armor from it because of the cap.

It isn't as easy to cap elemental or organic armor bonuses, but it's still very easy to do via abilities and passives. In the same scenario listed above, you'd only be getting 14% elemental and organic instead of the full 20%.

Even Bleed mitigation is affected. The Benediction ability from the Friar discipline gives 50% bleed mitigation, but you max out at 35% because of the cap.

Blair Math

Unfortunately, we don't know exactly how the math works. In a Q&A video quite a while ago, Blair mentioned a change to armor to account for armor penetration. Previously, armor was capped at a certain number and certain classes were able to get a lot of penetration, which would effectively drop armor by a lot. If I was capped at 65% and someone had 30% penetration, I effectively had 35% mitigation.

Blair changed it so that we could in theory go over the cap, but only when calculating total mitigation vs penetration. So if I had 75% mitigation total with a 65% cap and you hit me with 5% penetration, I would mitigate 65% of the damage. If you hit me with 15% penetration, I'd mitigate 60% of the damage.

The problem is, we don't know if this only applies to the final mitigation cap. If I'm at 35% physical armor bonus and I get another 20% from my armor, that puts me at 55% final physical mitigation. If I then use the Rune Sanctuary ability, my physical mitigation values will not change. Does the math behind the scenes take that into account? Is it giving me a total of 75% and subtracting penetration from that, or is the armor bonus always a 35% contribution and the math only applies to the final mitigation number? If the enemy has 5% penetration, am I getting 50% mitigation or 65% mitigation in that case?

Regardless of how the math is actually working, it's very non-intuitive. I don't understand why certain promotions raise the final caps but don't raise the armor bonus caps. I don't really understand why we need 2 different caps to begin with. Maybe the armor bonus caps are a means of limiting the mitigation of other classes so they can't match what plate wearers can achieve, but it hurts plate wearers just as much. If that's the case, then the armor bonus caps need to be raised for the tank classes.

Disciplines

There are several disciplines which grant healing abilities, and when combined with the Surging Spirit minor disc, they can do a significant amount of healing. None of these abilities provide a significant source of self-healing, though. Most heal only your target(s) and the ones that provide any self healing at all are low amounts and unreliable, such as Blood Orbs and the cleanse from Field Surgeon.

A knight with Field Surgeon could certainly help with healing the group, but I still don't know that it compares to Templar healing.

Final Thoughts

If anything I have written is wrong, please correct me, but I think this illustrates why knights fail as tanks in Crowfall. I know someone will say that this is a group game, not 1 vs 1, so let me diffuse that argument right now. Which of the 3 tanks are you going to bring to your group? The one with good damage that doesn't need much healing when played well? The one that can do some damage and provide healing for the entire group? Or the one that has chain attack and needs a pocket healer to keep them up?

When you look outside the tank classes, the knight's effectiveness is even more suspect. We have Champs with plate armor and ridiculous sustain, Confessors with plate armor and mana shield. Both classes are better at taking damage than a knight. 

The knight is intended to be a tank and it is failing in that role. I don't really care that we can't do a lot of damage. I play a knight because I want to be hard to kill, and there are many classes, tanks and non-tanks alike, who manage that far better than knights do.

 

 

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As far as I know the damage of DoTs is applied in Full upon First application. If one Blocks when the DoT is first applied, the whole DoT is Blocked. Other than that the write up seems sound to me.

Knight Chain Pull and CC are (in theory) good at Peeling Targets off their focus...but everyone has CC and CC immunities so that really loses meaning quickly.
My issue with the Knight is it has no way to protect their group. Even Blocking travelling AoEs like Tornados only Blocks the incoming damage for the Knight.
A Cleric Blocking will Heal their entire group every time they are struck... Templar gets the Parry Knockdown as mentioned before.
A Knight used to be the anti Confessor-with the Elemental Reflect from Block I would actively seek out and Block AoEs from them.
That was taken away in 5.8 and even if you slot it again with Shield Fighter...
it doesn't matter against Sanctifier (which almost every current Confessor runs) because of the 50% Phys Resist Barrier that is constantly reapplying to them.

Perhaps the Knight could generate Barriers for their group?

Knight is still a work in progress, and probably will (and needs to) get another rework in time.
Knight Class Combos are quite expensive compared to similar powers one can get from Disciplines.

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11 minutes ago, Scorn said:

As far as I know the damage of DoTs is applied in Full upon First application. If one Blocks when the DoT is first applied, the whole DoT is Blocked. Other than that the write up seems sound to me.

I'll have to test that out. 

12 minutes ago, Scorn said:

Perhaps the Knight could generate Barriers for their group?

Knight is still a work in progress, and probably will (and needs to) get another rework in time.
Knight Class Combos are quite expensive compared to similar powers one can get from Disciplines.

Barriers might end up being more trouble than they are worth given how they work and how easy they are to counter.

How about something like this:

When we activate our ultimate ability, we are healed for a percentage of our max HP based on the current value of our block meter. Group members are healed for 50% of that total.

So If I have 10k HP, get my block meter up to 30% and use Whirling Leap, I'm healed for 3000 in addition to the other effects. My group members are healed for 1500 each. If my block meter is at 0%, I receive no healing and neither does my group.

This would be a simple change that wouldn't require re-designing the class, and it would put us more in line with the other tanks. It requires using block and having our ultimate available to use it. The healing can still be negated via Shield Breaker, but at least people would have a reason to target knights and include them in their groups.

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I'd been meaning to post a state of the knight 5.8 post, but it was too depressing.  Still, since you've started it, I may as well chip in.

I have played all three knight promotion classes pretty extensively in 5.8.

Swordsman - had good damage at the start of 5.8, but it got triple nerfed (Mercy reduced from 9% to 3%, mighty surge bonus reduced from 125% to 50%, and uptime on swordsmanship buff crippled so that only one native knight power can trigger it, and then only some of the time) early and is back to doing less damage than other melee dps classes.   The reduced cooldown on charge is nice for battlefield mobility.  Lack of self-sustain makes it weaker than the melee classes with self-sustain.  As Arkade pointed out, self-healing is much stronger than armor as actual damage mitigation.  And the barriers a knight gets are utterly pathetic.  They should be a percentage of maximum health, not a little 500-pt invitation for shieldbreaker.

Sentinel - CC-focused promotions feel weak in an environment where everyone's running around with two retaliates available.  Sentinel has all the problems the other knight promotion classes have - they can't take damage or dish it out well.   The additional PCM in the tree helps with using heavy weapons, but as long as the PCM cap is at 25%, heavy weapons don't feel good.  Final PCM has a cap of 100% but the only thing that contributes to it is capped at 25%.

Secutor - different playstyle than the other two promotion classes.  Everything revolves around shield bash.  Feels like the math on shield bash is wrong - if we were doing tooltip dmg (including all the multipliers from the talent tree) with it, it'd be utterly useless.  But there's an extra multiplier in there somewhere that makes shield bash crits very strong, and that makes the class viable (as far as knights go, that is).  Strangely, you can squeeze out more dps on Secutor than on Swordsman if you get your bashes in all the time.

We all know that champion (especially pitfighter) is overpowered.  Pitfighter is so strong because it has good mobility, a ranged attack that slows on a low cooldown, the most health of any class in the game, the best self-sustain of any class in the game by a large margin, good damage, and decent cc.  It's hard to get away from them, it's hard to stop them getting away from you, it's hard to do enough damage to make them sweat given their self-healing.   I don't understand how the same devs who made secutor knight could make pitfighter champion and think "these are both tanky melee promotions that are roughly equivalent."

Knight is essentially a one-trick pony.  Chain pull is a very cool trick, but it's all the knight has, and it's not enough.  Knights are weak 1v1.  Knights are weak in small group play.  Knights are weak guarding the ToL or attacking the ToL.  There's nowhere the knight shines.  Chainpulling targets into your zerg in large fights isn't a role to be proud of.

We're still playing knights.  They're not so crappy that they're unplayable.  A good knight is an asset to a group.  But an equally skilled pitfighter or tank confessor or myrmidon brings more.

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I've been playing a knight for 5.8 and agree with the OP's sentiment. There are a few more points that are worth mentioning. The knights passive 30% cooldown reduction is amazing, it allows the standard to drop on nearly a 50% uptime. It also makes those long 45 second cooldowns a lot more bearable. The name of the game seems to be making hard counters more efficient with reduced cooldowns on skills like slash reflect and barriers in militant or increasing the uptime on the runecaster buffs

I have talked with other knights from past patches about the sustain and self healing that we have compared to champ and myrm and in the past the solution was disc healing like mudman or niad. I don't know if the calculations have changed but on my CC knight with roughly 900 support power the heals from fountain of life and remold are, well, abysmal. Last week I checked on niad again and it was ticking for 153 on a pretty slow pulse.

I have rolled both the Swordsman and Sentinel builds and find them to be equally tanky. The sword knight shines but the Mace/CC has some decent burst too. I enjoy the differences between these two classes and they do have different playstyles, which is what meaningful choices should promote.

I see that a lot of knights have dropped block for the dodge, in order to avoid damage instead of mitigating it. I have been taking either of the mentioned builds into large scale fights at the Tree of Life or Throne Room brawls, where the healing is stacked and it is fairly tanky in those situations. In the field it can bunker down pretty well if the standard is active and the knight is blocking. It's a fine line hanging out around 30% health though. In the end I think the hang up is the fact that you want to be a pvp tank have to run hard counters to specific damage or choose between Dealing damage or mitigating it. Something like a templar or cleric is far more durable with a steady stream of self healing and decent (but not spectacular mitigation).

I am still enjoying this class in PVP, it's pretty versatile and I love the base kit. It has some good abilities but doesn't shine in any one area, it's very much a class for the generalist

 

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9 minutes ago, Chroma said:

We're still playing knights.  They're not so crappy that they're unplayable.  A good knight is an asset to a group.  But an equally skilled pitfighter or tank confessor or myrmidon brings more.

Well said.  And thanks to OP for the post.  I love my knight and his versatility in a small group fight.  But anything larger, or if I'm up against Champs/Myrms without a healer, and it's GG. 

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34 minutes ago, Arkade said:

I'll have to test that out. 

I tested out Block against a Jumping Spider on the TEST server to see how it works. Those spiders have a severe bleed called Irritating Hairs. When I didn't block, the bleed ticked for about 200 and when I did block, it was about 50 per tick.

So it looks like, against that attack at least, it is working as I would expect.

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@Arkade I also wanted to thank you for the original post. It's good to see someone publishing this kind of information for new players and theory enthusiasts. I agree that you are spot with your assessment that "tankiness" requires both sustain(self healing) as well as mitigation. I think the core problem with knight is that it lacks the sustain and must be played like a DPS class despite being pushed as a Tank. The upcoming iframe removal is really going to put us in an interesting place.

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I've tried the three different knights and still tend to main Templar.  The Knight toolkit is much more fun then the Templar's, but zero sustain and a weak damage shield really make the Knight feel handcuffed without healing support on-hand.  Ignoring pit fighters (known to be busted and soon to be changed), myrmidons seem to just be tankier, more self sufficient, do more damage, and have more mobility than either of the plate wearing classes.  Templar's saving grace is the group heal functionality of Paladin spec, but it's entirely a one trick pony there.  As you've all said before, Knights would feel pretty good if they were given some form of sustain or a greater innate tankiness (bigger hp pool, more damage shields, maybe heal over time or in-combat hp Regen?)

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25 minutes ago, Tinnis said:

the only unique utility on knight is dodge pip removal and its subsequent refresh tick issues ;p

How valuable can that skill actually be?  Given it's limitations (need 3x hits to charge, small damage, and potentially not needing it), I've kept it unslotted on both of the knight specs I tried out.  Even with human / 10 power slots.

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It's useful when you hit it when they just started their timer...super frustrating when you get it on a target and in ~3 seconds they have Dodged

It's also your main source of damage on the Secutor line and actually creates a pretty interesting way to play IMO when it generates a use every time you hit a Shield Skill.

Edited by Scorn

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37 minutes ago, excellz said:

How valuable can that skill actually be?  Given it's limitations (need 3x hits to charge, small damage, and potentially not needing it), I've kept it unslotted on both of the knight specs I tried out.  Even with human / 10 power slots.

A little background from just about 2 years ago when the "new" knight was introduced. This knight used stamina, where previously it had used mana, and the Shield Bash ability was added.

https://crowfall.com/en/news/articles/meet-the-new-knight/

Quote

We have always wanted to add some directional, group mate, and multi-Knight based aspects to Block. We don’t have those parts yet, 

We still don't have any of that. Part of that was supposed to be provided by the Secutor discipline, but the Form Up ability was just labeled as "coming soon" and they eventually removed the Secutor disc. Now that we have the Secutor promotion class, maybe Form Up will be given to them automatically if and when they get it working.

Quote

Shield Bash is mapped to the number 2 spot, formerly occupied by Shield Slam. (Since we don’t have the tech to allow power swapping yet, Shield Slam has been temporarily moved to the number 7 slot.)

The idea was that when Shield Bash was active, pressing 2 would cast it. When it was not active, pressing 2 would cast Shield Slam. That hasn't happened yet either, but I rarely use either ability. If they are combined into one, maybe I'll find a place on my bar for it.

Quote

In the current iteration, Pursuit has been changed into a single-press- to-activate power. After much refactoring to our movement system we don’t have the variable input for distance on our charge-to- use powers, and as a result Pursuit was just broken. Changing it to single-press activation is best way to clean it up for now, but let’s put a note on this one that we will likely want to revisit it in the future.

In a previous version of the character controller, we would press and hold the #1 button to execute Pursuit. When we released the button, the knight would stop and do the hit/stun. Currently we click once to activate and have to wait for the entire animation to play out before it executes the hit, even if we reach the target after 5 meters.

Hopefully this is still on their radar somewhere.

It's kind of ironic that the knight was the first archetype they made and it's the one that has the most unresolved tech issues. Maybe once they get the Frostweaver done, the engineers will have some time to look at this stuff.

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1 hour ago, excellz said:

How valuable can that skill actually be?  Given it's limitations (need 3x hits to charge, small damage, and potentially not needing it), I've kept it unslotted on both of the knight specs I tried out.  Even with human / 10 power slots.

if dodge pip CD wasnt random intervals shield bash and chain pull would be knight best ability, the randomness of the dodge pip cming back makes it a pain in the ass and very RNGish aswell :(
Sentinels gets hit hard with the current CC immunity/break mechanics :( which realy sucks.

Resolve would be interesting if there was no CD and was constantly ticking heals on you when u hit that threshold so u need to dmg faster than the healing regen. would help with survival too.

Edited by veeshan

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Knight Block was also supposed to increase mitigations and.or prevent CC to those standing behind him. They have the tech to detect when someone's behind you, hopefully the tech is there to allow that functionality


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You Can't Be A Genius, If You Aren't The Slightest Bit Insane.

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Here is my 2 cents on knights in 5.8 and I will reiterate some of what I said in the role of a knight thread.

Swordmaster- DPS spec a bit too dependent on RNG to get Mighty Surge to proc. When its up you just stop what you are doing and LMB until it runs out. Plays most like knights from previous builds. If you get lucky with Mighty Surge this spec could possibly be highest damage possible with relative ease. Pros- Good Damage, Best Mobility (6 second pursuit CD), Performs Knights role to chainpull and steal dodge pips. Cons- Requires Mo Swords and/or Blademaster with many skills on your bar to give you the best chance of procing Mighty Surge. Not very tanky.

Secutor- Tank Spec relying on shield bash (dodge pip destroyer) as major source of damage. Plays very differently from Swordmaster knight in that all of your ability rotations involve alternating shield bash with another shield ability within 5 seconds. If you are unable to shield bash within 5 seconds of each other your damage will become negligible. Pros- 1.5k extra HP. Excellent damage (possibly highest). Able to best perform knights role of dodge pip steal and chainpull as your shield abilities reset shield bash. Can block longer after noble blood. Cons- Must take Mo Shields and/or Shield fighter to give you shield abilities to rotate with. Not very mobile (pursuit 24 second cooldown). Very combo reliant for damage.

Sentinel- CC Spec that grants extra base kit CC and energy renewal on CC. Plays similar to old knight including the damage of a wet noodle. This spec is only decent in huge fights where you can make most of the aoe root shout and your personal damage really doesn't matter. Pros- Can chain more CC with energy regen on CC. AoE Root (which is the hardest thing to break out of due to the fact that not retaliating immediately usually means you wont be able to retaliate at all as the option goes away once you do anything else). Can perform the knights role of chainpull and dodge pip steal. Cons-  Damage is negligible like old knight. Not very tanky.

As I said in the other thread the Knights only role is to chainpull and steal dodge pips. No other class can do this and this is what knight brings to the table. All three specs can perform this but Secutor is probably the best unless you are fighting in huge 40v40s where the CC knight doesn't need to do any damage. Knights are no longer able to solo. At all. Period. Don't even think of knight in terms of 1v1 anymore. Its simply not worth it. You require a healer and with one you can be a right terror. Knights are one of the most diverse classes in build possibilities and can help in any group playing another minor role whatever your play style or the group requires. Knights are play makers and team players. They are very important to group compositions and even just one knight can make a huge difference in locking down a slippery target. This will be even more apparent with the removal of I-frames allowing knights to shield bash and steal pips regardless of ultimate's being used. There are many ways to play a knight, just don't do it alone :D

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1 hour ago, cremdalacrem said:

Can perform the knights role of chainpull and dodge pip steal.

Knights are supposed to be tanks. That's the role I care about. The rest is just gimmicks.

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Im sorry Arkade but the current state of Knight in 5.8 is not to be a meat shield. Pitfighters fill that role. You can take a lot of damage as a knight with a healer supporting you but you aren't the best to completely frontline. Blocking helps keep you alive but does nothing for your teammates. You call chainpulling and dodge pip stealing a gimmick but it is the unique thing knights bring to the table and is the main reason to bring knights.

 

Edited by cremdalacrem

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