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Arkade

State of the Knight 5.8

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6 hours ago, cremdalacrem said:

ou call chainpulling and dodge pip stealing a gimmick but it is the unique thing knights bring to the table and is the main reason to bring knights.

It's hardly class defining.  

More to the point, Myrms/Champions have more survivability and tankiness than knights and also more damage.  Can't have it all in a single class but then say, well, Knights are fine because they have a cool chain pull??

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Considering no other class can chain pull or steal dodge pips (Myrms net pull is way too finnicky atm to be useful) I would say its pretty class defining. Also Knights out damage pitfighters if you know what you are doing. Managed to kill 2 today in single combat...very gear dependent though. Titan myrm still out damage knights but that's not a tank spec and with 5.8.1 they will crash more often and wont be as survivable due to removal of I-frames. There will always be classes that are better at certain things and right now knights aren't the best for tanking but we are very useful in other ways as I've stated previously.

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CC class builds need to be looked at tbh with how anto CC currently is any form of build that relies on hard CC often get screwed since there low dmg due to having the extra hard CC but they cant even utilise that for sentinels hard CC for me is literally only for energy regen nothing else. i dont expect it to stick for more than half a second (Especialy since ived noticed people running E Macros where they toggle it on there e key just gets mashed like 10 times a second so any CC instantly gets retaliated to the point they dont even get put in the Stun or knock down position) and if they run Jaggunant or something its acutely deferential to CC at all since you letting them heal there HP back and do decent dmg back with retaliate. Equaly bad when CC build have lower dmg like sentinels your healing most of the dmg they do back from that passive alone -.-

CC specs need some way to hinder the use of Retaliate (Only CC designed advance classes) Either making it cost additional stamina to use, preventing the use of retaliate for X (1 second base before retaliate can be used and that goes up or down depending on CC intensity stats) seconds after being stunned/knockdown based on hard CC bonus Vs Hard CC defence of the player (Currently hard CC passive and all that are a useless skil due to retaliate) This garantees CC will atleast last for a second or 2 on these classes built to do CC which makes them a little more useful. You could also allow for them to CC through a CC immunity as a perk also, these are some suggestion for those CC build classes ofcourse dont have all of them on one class cause thata be broken :P just throwing some suggestion to make the CC builds like Fury(I think its fury bottom templar line), Sentinel and all that in there CC roll.

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11 hours ago, cremdalacrem said:

Considering no other class can chain pull or steal dodge pips (Myrms net pull is way too finnicky atm to be useful) I would say its pretty class defining. Also Knights out damage pitfighters if you know what you are doing. Managed to kill 2 today in single combat...very gear dependent though. Titan myrm still out damage knights but that's not a tank spec and with 5.8.1 they will crash more often and wont be as survivable due to removal of I-frames. There will always be classes that are better at certain things and right now knights aren't the best for tanking but we are very useful in other ways as I've stated previously.

Can I ask how you define gear dependent?  Swordsmen?

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As in if the knight is not in top of the line gear ( over 1.5k bonus hp on each piece of plate and a weapon with top end damage over 160) it struggles to last when focused and certainly doesn't win out 1v1s. After acquiring top of the line gear I am now at least able to contend with other classes and out damage pitfighter healing. I could not do that before. I am playing secutor though, not sure how swordsman would hold up yet.

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As a followup to my previous post, I worry that the elimination of the weapon mastery slot will have an adverse effect on knights, too.  Restoration strike is my hardest hitting power, and it restores energy.  Without it, I'm going to do even less damage and have to worry more about energy starvation.  Blair has said some of the weapon mastery powers will be moved into the talent tree, which may alleviate my concern, but if they add more stuff there without increasing the talent points we get, we'll be weakened by whatever we're unable to take.

Additionally, the talent trees all end with a passive power.  Knights already have too many passives for their available slots, and adding a required passive at the end of each talent line exacerbates the problem.  Demon's Pact was already a required discipline before this change.  Our passive choices are too restricted.

 

Edited to add: Swordsman dmg revolves around the mighty surge buff.  It'd be really nice if there were a visual indication of when I have the buff so I'm not constantly having to look at the top right of my screen to see if it has appeared in my list of buffs.

Edited by Durenthal

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3 hours ago, cremdalacrem said:

As in if the knight is not in top of the line gear ( over 1.5k bonus hp on each piece of plate and a weapon with top end damage over 160) it struggles to last when focused and certainly doesn't win out 1v1s. After acquiring top of the line gear I am now at least able to contend with other classes and out damage pitfighter healing. I could not do that before. I am playing secutor though, not sure how swordsman would hold up yet.

Sounds like that's not really anything to say about the knight's kit and more that if you're better geared than your opponents, you're going to win. 

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Knights kit is great for group fighting and I think its in a very strong place. But yes in 1v1 you need to have a gear advantage to win usually. This is why I've stated knights should never be thought of as solo playable. 

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Other classes are great for group fighting as well and can arguably offer better CC, more damage, and more sustainability in the same package.  If the only gimmick the knight brings is the pull, in a scenario where gear is not a factor, that's not a "strong place".  That's a tenuous thread.

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4 minutes ago, excellz said:

Other classes are great for group fighting as well and can arguably offer better CC, more damage, and more sustainability in the same package.  If the only gimmick the knight brings is the pull, in a scenario where gear is not a factor, that's not a "strong place".  That's a tenuous thread.

U may as well be a mym when there pull get fixed if u want that gimmick

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Knights do the most damage of pitfighters, tank myrmidons, and tank templars imo.... titan myrms survivability will drop drastically when i-frames are removed. And you must remember the utility of removing dodge pips on the kill target. Currently the only thing knights lack is survivability compared to other tank classes. They make up for that by providing significant CC as much or as little as you want to put on your bar, unblockable 30m chainpull, removing peoples ability to escape with dodges, and providing MORE damage than other tank specs. On secutor knight my combos can look something like this. Chainpull (500)-->shield bash to remove pips (400)->shieldswipe/stun (500/500)-> shieldbash crit (1500)->shield glare combo (400/500) -> shield bash (1500) then lmb 3x ->shield bash...constantly removing dodge pips, stun, blind, etc... people go down pretty fast. 

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1 hour ago, cremdalacrem said:

Currently the only thing knights lack is survivability compared to other tank classes. 

That's the only thing that matters. We are SUPPOSED to be tanks. If they don't want knights to be tanks, then increase their damage, call them melee dps, and I'll play something else.

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On 21/01/2019 at 7:34 AM, cremdalacrem said:

Knights kit is great for group fighting and I think its in a very strong place. But yes in 1v1 you need to have a gear advantage to win usually. This is why I've stated knights should never be thought of as solo playable. 

tbh i think sentinels play better solo cause in castle fights everyone has Juggernaut so everyone is CC immune basicly 24/7 from that along with retaliate from other forms of CC from other players. Not to mention u get melted if u get focused and somone has a shield breaker or an armor pen disapline. gotta love that 40% armor penetration builds -.-

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Thought I’d share my view. Been playing knight for the last 2 patches so not an old schooler here but hey, fresh eyes! I’ll try not to repeat was has already been said. I have been playing CF since HD though.

Swordsman – To me this is a large GvG battle spec. Lots of 3+ target abilities and the ability to use pursuit every 4 secs means you can get out of combat really fast when needed (yes, it’s 4 secs to me because by the time you’re done using pursuit the first time you have 4 sec left to use it again). Nothing like running into a mob of people and whacking 4 of them with 1200 points of dmg, whirling leap for 900 and pursuit away. It can really push a group back.

Secutor – DPS class and best tank. The ability to basically block at no cost, forever, is huge. Using shieldbreaker and shield fighter discs gives me a 20 pt armor break and a +15 pen, I have 167% crit dmg and have crit geared people for over 2800. Someone stands still they are taking 15-2500 hits every 2-3 secs. Good luck living through that. Problem is, people don’t stand still. The stun from swipe helps but your lucky to land one of these much less 2. With some skill, this can be done and creates a very cool "game within a game" dynamic. In large battles… forget about it. No way to really lock down anyone long enough to do substantial dmg and if you can’t get the shield bash going then play something else, cause your dmg might as well be healing them.

Sentinel – I love this guy…. But he sucks! Seriously in large gvg, this class would shine if it were not for the seemingly limitless cc immunity. As an Elken knight, I can pursuit in, stun. Charge, knock up. Shout, AOE root. I’ve done this before in some nice engagements. The idea of procing the dmg boost on stuns and knockdowns is nice but that dmg is crap and the buff is so short you barely get through 3 lmb before its gone… wtf? This knight has so much potential but it’s just not there.

Again there are other highlights and cons for all of these but none that have not already been mentioned.

Knight chain… yay something worth something, blah blah blah... Knight Ult hasn’t been mentioned much but I do feel it’s possibly one of the best in the game. The physics are finally working… more or less. An aoe high dmg is ult is something that most classes don’t have. You basically have it up all the time. If you jump and ult, it’s a great peel-ability as it acts more like a splash, tossing people away.

The idea to make barriers scale with health is a good one. Resolve could be tweaked… there are lots of ways to make Knights more durable and that is the overwhelming issue with them. Allow them a way to actually tank and we’d be in a great spot… or at least not in a really poorly made socksty spot… somewhere in the middle, which is fine considering how utilitarian the class is. Blair needs to take out all his knobs he keeps talking about and turn them to adjust the current kit the knight has and we’d be in good shape.

More or better barriers, higher heals from resolve (or second wind?), shorter CD’s, trigger at higher health, etc…

A thought I always had was to allow knights to block AND roll/jump. A bit more mobility would go a long way and make us more unique. Doesn’t solve the main “tank” problem but it would make it more interesting.

Another thought I had was if the knight is supposed to be heal dependent. Meaning knight isn't really supposed to be far from a healer, then why not give them an inherently high PHM(personal Healing Modifier). Like start them at 30% or give them talents that increase their PHM by 10% per points spend. Better than that poorly made socksty "combat regen" skill (anyone ever take this?). Make that an increase to PHM and then you'd see people actually put points in it.

I still love playing knight but yes, if you are here looking to see what makes knight better than anything else, sorry. There is nothing that a knight can do that some other class would not do better :(

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27 minutes ago, Brightdance said:

 

Knight chain… yay something worth something, blah blah blah... Knight Ult hasn’t been mentioned much but I do feel it’s possibly one of the best in the game. The physics are finally working… more or less. An aoe high dmg is ult is something that most classes don’t have. You basically have it up all the time. If you jump and ult, it’s a great peel-ability as it acts more like a splash, tossing people away.

 

As a sentinel its kinda meh tbh, the dmg is poorly made socks dispite using a blue heavy mace, 75% of the time you dont even do dmg cause there get flung past you or doesnt even get affected by the pull dispite being practically next to you, the only real use i found for it is trying to pull people like pit fighters off the edge of the map or off a cliff to kil them (Cause that the only way to kill them) and this imo is a bug from my understanding it spose to pull people to you (which it does half the time) not slingshot them behind you tbh if it consistantly did the same thing it would be a more useful ability atm u hit the button and pray it does what u want it too lol

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