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Ungood

a Revision to Game Play.

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3 hours ago, Ungood said:

Umm.. all Reaper does is give 0.625 Harvest Power Pips Bonus,

Where as, Miner, gives  1.25 Plentiful Resources Ore: All as well as the passive: Empowered Mining which Greatly enhances the Energetic Harvesting power with additional Mining effects. 1 Harvest Pip: When Energetic Harvest is activated also gain Empowered Mining, which increases Mining by 5%. 2 Harvest Pips: When Perceptive Harvest is activated also gain Perceptive Mining, which increases Spot Weakness: Ore by 5%. 3 Harvest Pips: Increases the Stamina restore amount by 4. 4 Harvest Pips: When Heightened Harvest is activated also gain Heightened Mining, which increases the effectiveness of any Energetic Harvest, Perceptive Harvest, and Stamina restore effects gained in the next 7 seconds. 5 Harvest Pips: When Furious Reaping is activated also adds Furious Mining, which increases the Harvest Base Damage: Ore by 30. Lasts 6 seconds or 2 hits, whichever comes first.

In short, if all you are running is Reaper and not any majors, you are a very sub-optimal harvester, you are really just a combat build with a minor harvesting buff on.

Let's count

https://imgur.com/a/JJQk25G

Can't expect someone who doesn't play to understand. You should stop spreading misinformation. You don't need miner or logger.


231e101d88.jpg

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13 hours ago, Ungood said:

Right now,  as it where, some classes are very strong solo, the fact that a single player was able to drop myself and 2 other people, which gave birth to this topic

Out of curiosity what classes/disciplines/gear were you using? Were you all full health? In combat? Harvesting? You could of all been 5% health and a sneeze could of killed you. What's the full picture?

Not to say that X can't do a lot due to balance issues, but I also don't believe it is just as easy as pick X class and profit.

An assassin shouldn't be "1 shotting" plate players in high end gear for example. There are ways to keep stealthers out of stealth even after they get the jump where they then become very vulnerable. Higher tier weapons are being toned down which could be a factor as well. 

Quote

A hard choice is when you have to pick between two equally viable and good choices. 

That is not what is in this game, and something I am trying to bring to light.

You are pointing out common sense issues that have and will continue to be addressed as devs have time. Balance is an issue, but they have bigger objectives (or should) at this time. I'd much rather they add mounts, thralls, more npcs types, frostweaver, optimization, etc then worry about 3 random players being killed by another random player because of XYZ. Other classes/builds have been OP over the years and they've addressed them, just for something else to pop up. It is what it is for now.

Quote

I am going to again, respectfully disagree, Crowfalls set up of both Character Trait lines and Account Skill, make it a ideal set up to teat this system.

In fact the idea of breaking the game down into Core Purpose Class (Tank, DPS, CC, Healer, Harvester) with augmenting Trait Lines and having things like Weapon Choice, Stealth, Armor, etc, being on the Skill would be inspired.  

In fact, now that I think about it, a Racial Skill Line would also be good.

The older passive training was more like this and wasn't good IMO. It could of been, but they didn't have the resources or plan/vision to really make it good. Unfortunately they don't have unlimited resources. The current version could use more work and I hope over time it gets more attention. Trying to make passive and active character progression work together is tricky and why it isn't seen much.

I like that they went back to more of the original plan of Promo Classes while still allowing players to passively train to build upon those choices. Like a "Tank" player can train into a Tank or CC Promo and then Armor passively. However, more is on the character/active side so players can play more than one role or type or character.

Overtime they can add more and more, but I don't see them ever going in the direction of making it very open as you seem to suggest. Simply not that game and they have no reason to change that.

Quote

No. Good PvP is not really up for debate, challenging fights with balanced classes will always make for the best PvP games, this is an absolute.

This comes in countless forms though. There is a huge difference between different game designs.

They should not balance around 1v1 in a team based game, simply makes no sense. Except in the same category like heal druid vs heal cleric. They should both provide similar heal output and or support where neither is absolutely the best by default. From there it goes into too much to make it apples to apples. Certain builds benefit more from disciplines currently. Champions are just silly. Confessors being able to wear plate and not lose range (not intended) is silly. High DPS builds should not have high defense or high escape. There should be pros/cons to everything and currently somethings have more pros then cons but time will deal with it if the devs do a good job.

Hopefully Crowfall has a Meta that changes over time and keeps things fresh. If anything is overly powerful and not intended, hopefully devs address it. No doubt players will make it known. 

Issue I see with your stealth concern is that it isn't universal. For 1 player to take out 3 there has to be a lot of factors going in the victors way. Simply being X class or having stealth doesn't guarantee the same result just because.

12 hours ago, Ungood said:

Now if they bring the game into their expressed view of balance then it will be a much better game.

This is the period in the sentence. It will come overtime or it won't, depending on the devs ability to figure it out. Pretty sure they are aware of the current issues but again, they shouldn't focus too much attention on it right this second. If something is overly broken where it makes testing/playing impossible, sure, but I don't see that currently. Unfortunately some builds are better developed at this point and counters less so because of multiple factors.

Edited by APE

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9 hours ago, APE said:

Out of curiosity what classes/disciplines/gear were you using? Were you all full health? In combat? Harvesting? You could of all been 5% health and a sneeze could of killed you. What's the full picture?

Not to say that X can't do a lot due to balance issues, but I also don't believe it is just as easy as pick X class and profit.

An assassin shouldn't be "1 shotting" plate players in high end gear for example. There are ways to keep stealthers out of stealth even after they get the jump where they then become very vulnerable. Higher tier weapons are being toned down which could be a factor as well. 

You are pointing out common sense issues that have and will continue to be addressed as devs have time. Balance is an issue, but they have bigger objectives (or should) at this time. I'd much rather they add mounts, thralls, more npcs types, frostweaver, optimization, etc then worry about 3 random players being killed by another random player because of XYZ. Other classes/builds have been OP over the years and they've addressed them, just for something else to pop up. It is what it is for now.

The older passive training was more like this and wasn't good IMO. It could of been, but they didn't have the resources or plan/vision to really make it good. Unfortunately they don't have unlimited resources. The current version could use more work and I hope over time it gets more attention. Trying to make passive and active character progression work together is tricky and why it isn't seen much.

I like that they went back to more of the original plan of Promo Classes while still allowing players to passively train to build upon those choices. Like a "Tank" player can train into a Tank or CC Promo and then Armor passively. However, more is on the character/active side so players can play more than one role or type or character.

Overtime they can add more and more, but I don't see them ever going in the direction of making it very open as you seem to suggest. Simply not that game and they have no reason to change that.

This comes in countless forms though. There is a huge difference between different game designs.

They should not balance around 1v1 in a team based game, simply makes no sense. Except in the same category like heal druid vs heal cleric. They should both provide similar heal output and or support where neither is absolutely the best by default. From there it goes into too much to make it apples to apples. Certain builds benefit more from disciplines currently. Champions are just silly. Confessors being able to wear plate and not lose range (not intended) is silly. High DPS builds should not have high defense or high escape. There should be pros/cons to everything and currently somethings have more pros then cons but time will deal with it if the devs do a good job.

Hopefully Crowfall has a Meta that changes over time and keeps things fresh. If anything is overly powerful and not intended, hopefully devs address it. No doubt players will make it known. 

Issue I see with your stealth concern is that it isn't universal. For 1 player to take out 3 there has to be a lot of factors going in the victors way. Simply being X class or having stealth doesn't guarantee the same result just because.

This is the period in the sentence. It will come overtime or it won't, depending on the devs ability to figure it out. Pretty sure they are aware of the current issues but again, they shouldn't focus too much attention on it right this second. If something is overly broken where it makes testing/playing impossible, sure, but I don't see that currently. Unfortunately some builds are better developed at this point and counters less so because of multiple factors.

Fun lot of words. Looked mostly like excuses.

So.. I'll say this again, because a lot of you seem to miss this. This is a PvP Game, and they live and die by their balance.

If this game is 2 years off from launch, sure, lets twiddle our thumbs, and put this on ignore. Could have sworn tho there was talk about a soft launch in 6 months or so.. I could be wrong, and I really.. hope I am.

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On 1/24/2019 at 8:40 AM, Ungood said:

Fun lot of words. Looked mostly like excuses.

So.. I'll say this again, because a lot of you seem to miss this. This is a PvP Game, and they live and die by their balance.

If this game is 2 years off from launch, sure, lets twiddle our thumbs, and put this on ignore. Could have sworn tho there was talk about a soft launch in 6 months or so.. I could be wrong, and I really.. hope I am.

Which of my comments were an excuse?

They've alluded to wanting to soft launch this year, but I'd be surprised if they did or if so. Lots of missing features, performance issues, and overall polish/bugs that need to be worked on.

Balancing pre-alpha is a waste of time and you seem to miss that. They have and continue to fix bugs and balance out things as needed for an overall better experience. They aren't or shouldn't balance around 1v1 or X vs Y.

This isn't a one dimensional PVP game where everyone has a gun or 4 spells to use. MMOs, especially open world PVP focused, come with a lot of unfair and imbalanced elements just by their nature. Part of the fun for some is figuring out how to make something powerful and use it well. When things clearly cross the line, devs should step in though and ACE continues to do so. I don't see them being oblivious to such issues now or in the future.

If X can 3 v 1 with minimal effort, something is wrong. However, my guess is you simply were outplayed due to multiple factors that you might not or choose not to recognize. It's easy to blame X and not look at yourself. Maybe you mentioned your setup, but if you won't, then I can only assume you were at a lvl, gear, skill, build disadvantage, and got caught off guard. This is no different then any similar game.

They aren't going to rebuild parts of the game because you got ganked.

 

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2 hours ago, APE said:

MMOs, especially open world PVP focused, come with a lot of unfair and imbalanced elements just by their nature.

No.

I am going to tell you right now, No one is going to come to a directly focused RvR/PvP game to deal with the same  blatant imbalances they could find in any other PvE MMO that gives some token PvP, like the WvW of GW2.

I want you to take this excuse, wad it in a ball and set it on fire, because if they even so much as attempt to use this excuse, they might as well stop now as this game is dead.

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Stealth is far from op currently. What has made assassins so popular is an entirely dif issue than the fact they have stealth.

Countering stealth heavily is currently just 1 slag and 1 dust away with the proper major rune.

Earlier there was talk about everyone getting stealth. Well how would you seriously feel if a myrmidon could sneak up on you? That is tad dif than having an assassin or a duelist sneak up on you.

And yes, there are a lot of balance issues still and will be for a very long time. I think everyone, including the devs are more interested in getting the game loop actually working and implementing missing features.

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2 hours ago, Ungood said:

No.

I am going to tell you right now, No one is going to come to a directly focused RvR/PvP game to deal with the same  blatant imbalances they could find in any other PvE MMO that gives some token PvP, like the WvW of GW2.

I want you to take this excuse, wad it in a ball and set it on fire, because if they even so much as attempt to use this excuse, they might as well stop now as this game is dead.

Please list a few popular PVP MMOs or PVE MMOs with optional PVP that are balanced without totally homogenizing classes/options. Be it alpha, beta, launch, 5 years after launch. You can scratch Albion, BDO, GW2, Aion, WoW, DAoC, EQ, SWG, SB, AC, WAR, ESO, SWTOR, AA, Rift, Tera off the list for starters.

Been playing these games for over 20 years and have yet to find one, nor would I if I did.

Every MMO with different build options has balance issues. Devs do there best to iron out all the kinks and get it to work, but withe every item, spell, class, buff/nerf, etc that is added or changed, something else is impacted. It is an ongoing issue that we are all aware of, you are not the first one to figure this out.

Blatant balance issues should be addressed no doubt, but again, this is pre-alpha and other issues are more important. If you believe they aren't going to work on balance anymore, clearly you aren't paying attention (see patch from Thursday). Lot was fixed/improved and other things were broke and made worse. Welcome to game development.

What you consider a blatant issue might just be an example of learn to play.

Again, please list out what your team was running and if you have any idea what your evil ganker was running. If you have no idea on either....maybe play a simpler game, preferable one that is actually a finished product.

Seems like you are trying to make excuses for losing 1 v 3.

Edited by APE

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17 minutes ago, APE said:

Please list a few popular PVP MMOs or PVE MMOs with optional PVP that are balanced without totally homogenizing classes/options. Be it alpha, beta, launch, 5 years after launch. You can scratch Albion, BDO, GW2, Aion, WoW, DAoC, EQ, SWG, SB, AC, WAR, ESO, SWTOR, AA, Rift, Tera off the list for starters.

Been playing these games for over 20 years and have yet to find one, nor would I if I did.

Let me explain this to you, because while you have said the words, I don't think it's sunk in yet. If anyone that just wanted a badly balanced PVE crafting Grind-fest MMO with some PvP, as you so clearly have shown they are not lacking in options..a great many options.. so.. tell me why would they come here as opposed to just enjoying the WvW of GW2, for example?

17 minutes ago, APE said:

What you consider a blatant issue might just be an example of learn to play.

Oh grand.. a Learn to Play Post.. who quaint.

I hope this is not the best excuse you can throw out, as this is really lame.

But I'll let you flounder on trying to answer the above question.

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4 minutes ago, Ungood said:

Let me explain this to you, because while you have said the words, I don't think it's sunk in yet. If anyone that just wanted a badly balanced PVE crafting Grind-fest MMO with some PvP, as you so clearly have shown they are not lacking in options..a great many options.. so.. tell me why would they come here as opposed to just enjoying the WvW of GW2, for example?

Campaigns, win/loss mechanics that have multi-campaign impact, various rulesets and ways to play the core game, player looting, different take of class design and progression, less focus on PVE dungeon grinding and quests, player run economy, EKs, blah blah blah.

If there was only one way to make a game, we'd all be playing the same thing.

If you don't like what they are doing or how they are doing it, you'll be gone shortly. You aren't going to convince the devs nor fans with differing views that you are right or know better. If you believe you will, good luck.

Maybe swing around in a few months or when they announce alpha/beta/soft launch. Until then you will probably be frustrated.

4 minutes ago, Ungood said:

Oh grand.. a Learn to Play Post.. who quaint.

I hope this is not the best excuse you can throw out, as this is really lame.

But I'll let you flounder on trying to answer the above question.

Please post your teams build and the enemies. This would be at least a little evidence that what you commented on is due to game design issues and not lack of game knowledge and build choices.

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1 hour ago, APE said:

Campaigns, win/loss mechanics that have multi-campaign impact, various rulesets and ways to play the core game, player looting, different take of class design and progression, less focus on PVE dungeon grinding and quests, player run economy, EKs, blah blah blah.

All of which is available in other games.

Name something that would make someone deal with the class imbalance here as opposed to playing a far more visually stunning game like GW2.

1 hour ago, APE said:

Please post your teams build and the enemies. This would be at least a little evidence that what you commented on is due to game design issues and not lack of game knowledge and build choices.

I was killed in one shot, on a level 30 cleric, with intermediate white gear. Instantly killed,.and this was not a one time thing. It's a common theme whenever I am out harvesting, a single player will drop 2 to 3 people with little to no effort shown, which is why gankers even exist. Spare me the L2P tripe.

If you think that kind of game design will retain people, you are deluding yourself.

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13 hours ago, Ungood said:

I was killed in one shot, on a level 30 cleric, with intermediate white gear. Instantly killed,.and this was not a one time thing. It's a common theme whenever I am out harvesting, a single player will drop 2 to 3 people with little to no effort shown, which is why gankers even exist. Spare me the L2P tripe.

I’m a Cleric player and often the loudest voice of healer balance on the dev partner boards.  What was your build?  Your armor values?  HP?  If you’re legitimately being 3 shot often then it’s something that should be addressed.  Do you have any SS or video clips that can be shown to the devs?   Who killed you so we can @ them and ask for build info and combat logs so we can get to the bottom of this.  The whole point of us testing is to provide data about what’s broken and how/why to the devs.   


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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1 hour ago, mandalore said:

I’m a Cleric player and often the loudest voice of healer balance on the dev partner boards.  What was your build?  Your armor values?  HP?  If you’re legitimately being 3 shot often then it’s something that should be addressed.  Do you have any SS or video clips that can be shown to the devs?   Who killed you so we can @ them and ask for build info and combat logs so we can get to the bottom of this.  The whole point of us testing is to provide data about what’s broken and how/why to the devs.   

Next time I am out and about.. I'll give you a SS of the combat log, and character build.. right now after the wipe, I have not made a new character yet.

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