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Puffs

Weapon Nerf & Concerns.

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5 hours ago, DocDoom said:

 

[citation needed]

I think he means they will stick to advanced weapons Nerf and discs becoming rare, thus the ease of weapon crafting plummeting and the benefits of doing it not worth the effort. 

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1 hour ago, Navystylz said:

I think he means they will stick to advanced weapons Nerf and discs becoming rare, thus the ease of weapon crafting plummeting and the benefits of doing it not worth the effort. 

Yah, precisely.  I don't remember if I saw those intentions quoted exactly and am not gonna wade through hours of video and text, but that seems to be the direction they're headed / continuing in.  He didn't have anything to add to the discussion or to refute / address the point I made, he just wanted to get some little cutesy poo shot in, so okay, fine. 

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1 hour ago, Navystylz said:

I think he means they will stick to advanced weapons Nerf and discs becoming rare, thus the ease of weapon crafting plummeting and the benefits of doing it not worth the effort. 

I totally disagree with the "not worth the effort". Even if white advanced gets a lot closer to intermediate in damage output right now a green advanced let you deal about 15% more total damage compared to white (I don't even want to talk about blue). If you think that doing at least 20% more damage is not worth it it's your choice but don't expect others to agree (and yeah the purpose of the nerf is make intermediate weapon closer to white advanced weapon not nerf the increase you get from rarity from everything I've seen).

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4 hours ago, Sogar said:

I totally disagree with the "not worth the effort". Even if white advanced gets a lot closer to intermediate in damage output right now a green advanced let you deal about 15% more total damage compared to white (I don't even want to talk about blue). If you think that doing at least 20% more damage is not worth it it's your choice but don't expect others to agree (and yeah the purpose of the nerf is make intermediate weapon closer to white advanced weapon not nerf the increase you get from rarity from everything I've seen).

I think it depends on the effort.  Is 20% more damage worth it if it takes 10x the investment?  I'm not contributing anything of substance here other than to point that out - I really have no idea what to expect as they revise this system.

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17 hours ago, pistkitty said:

When I heard about this weapons nerf, I had a different concern.  Pre-alpha, work in progress, yadda yadda...I think they're jumping the gun, doing these adjustments before determining the final state of crafting.  Right now, any random, including a full combat spec'd player, can for the price of a scrap metal access every crafting recipe in the game by swapping in and out the appropriate disc, which allows them to create anything they want.  (This is a ridiculous system, but testing blah blah, I digress).  If they stick to this, and indications are they will, when disciplines become very rare and sought after, advanced weapons (and gear in general) will potentially become very difficult to craft, and valuable.  Why the hell would I go through the trouble and time to learn to, let alone craft a Sturdy Staff of Whoopin' when your hastily assembled Random Stick is almost as good?

Well to start this, they will not be sticking with Major Discplines for crafting recipes. You will have to use passive training to obtain those recipes.

That is certainly something that never crossed my mind though.. and now that I think about it? As it is now, I never use basic or intermediate gear on anything. Not even because I can craft better myself, but because I can just afford to and my guild has the crafters, it's easy. I'd have to figure it all out and see for myself, but you raise a good point and the gear should be scaled and balanced by difficulty to obtain. This many more materials/rarity give you this amount of increase in stats. While a 15% increase in weapon damage is obviously good.. all I can say is what the hell if it takes five times longer to craft advanced gear compared to intermediate... and you only get a minimal increase for a substantial increase in effort? Now, when I say five times, I am talking specifically about different rarities. You can farm a full set of any advanced common gear in just above an hour or so, however what about green gear or higher? 

Let's say intermediate is intermediate, then common advanced is a 15% increase to stats. Then uncommon advanced is a 5% increase to that... what the hell is the point? I've seen people farm a few hundred ore.. get only a bit over a stack of green, less than a stack of blue, and maybe a dozen purple, and only a few legendaries. The rarity of the material and difference in how often it drops needs to scale stat-wise with how much longer it takes to achieve that different rarity. I understand the nerf to common advanced, it was easy to achieve, but hopefully they get the stat scaling in a good place as rarity goes up. Not only the time it takes to farm those different rarity materials, but the amount of time it takes to get the required passive training is quite important too, especially when crafting discs are at an end.

It's a damn shame I don't have access to the game and test at this moment, or I'd test all this out and see for myself. I would certainly be curious to know how it stands now, and I'm sure others would as well.

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10 hours ago, Sogar said:

I totally disagree with the "not worth the effort". Even if white advanced gets a lot closer to intermediate in damage output right now a green advanced let you deal about 15% more total damage compared to white (I don't even want to talk about blue). If you think that doing at least 20% more damage is not worth it it's your choice but don't expect others to agree (and yeah the purpose of the nerf is make intermediate weapon closer to white advanced weapon not nerf the increase you get from rarity from everything I've seen).

Do you have screenshots, some kind of proof that shows this? I've had several common pistols made by a blacksmith with 11+ pips, and multiple uncommons. The damage was certainly not a 15% increase. I simply haven't seen or made enough gear to know the differences myself.

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8 minutes ago, Puffs said:

Well to start this, they will not be sticking with Major Discplines for crafting recipes. You will have to use passive training to obtain those recipes.

You actually have that backwards, as recipes used to be granted by the passive training system but are being moved to disciplines and talents. Blair has stated his intentions in a number of off-handed comments (which he may want to clarify @thomasblair!) but in the beginning of this livestream you can get a rudimentary explanation. 

 

 

Basically when you slot a crafting discipline onto your crafting vessel and level it you'll use your talent points to grant yourself the recipes that discipline has.


Hi, I'm moneda.

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9 minutes ago, Puffs said:

Do you have screenshots, some kind of proof that shows this? I've had several common pistols made by a blacksmith with 11+ pips, and multiple uncommons. The damage was certainly not a 15% increase. I simply haven't seen or made enough gear to know the differences myself.

Well, I probably have seen even less weapons than you as blacksmithing is not my thing. All I know is that I've never seen any white weapons with more than 90 average damage while I've been told about green ones (that's not heavy) with close to 120 average damage ... not considering the difference in AP or pen there which is the reason I considered 15% damage difference reasonable. 

But as you said, there is a lot of factors to consider like the prowess of the crafter, the willingness to reroll so it's hard to make a "fair" judgement on the difference. Still from what I've experienced from crafting armor it should definetly be closer to 15% than 5% (which is also why people consider you need green weapons to compete).

As I said though, they do require a lot more farming but in a PvP game that's definetly worth it.

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41 minutes ago, Sogar said:

Well, I probably have seen even less weapons than you as blacksmithing is not my thing. All I know is that I've never seen any white weapons with more than 90 average damage while I've been told about green ones (that's not heavy) with close to 120 average damage ... not considering the difference in AP or pen there which is the reason I considered 15% damage difference reasonable. 

But as you said, there is a lot of factors to consider like the prowess of the crafter, the willingness to reroll so it's hard to make a "fair" judgement on the difference. Still from what I've experienced from crafting armor it should definetly be closer to 15% than 5% (which is also why people consider you need green weapons to compete).

As I said though, they do require a lot more farming but in a PvP game that's definetly worth it.

You can get whites up to 110ish light and greens to 135ish light.

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As a healer, I find the double healer meta to be really boring and that tells me that healing is waaaaaaay behind damage (which it is).  Druid healing is waaaaaaay ahead of other healing (depending on situation, paladin can be tops).

I'm excited for the nerf to druid healing and I'm very excited for the larger nerf to weapon damage.  I'd really like to see that 5th group spot go to another damage or even a CC/support character.

Single healer per group is definitely where we need to get but outside of Rescue, pretty much every other heal spell is complete trash compared to the damage that's being achieved.  If we can get to a single healer meta, then we can really see who can heal and who can't.  Should be fun.

I also wish they'd add other non-green-number healer abilities.  Damage reduction, lifepulls, absorbs, etc.

Edited by Ble

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1 hour ago, moneda said:

You actually have that backwards, as recipes used to be granted by the passive training system but are being moved to disciplines and talents. Blair has stated his intentions in a number of off-handed comments (which he may want to clarify @thomasblair!) but in the beginning of this livestream you can get a rudimentary explanation. 

 

 

Basically when you slot a crafting discipline onto your crafting vessel and level it you'll use your talent points to grant yourself the recipes that discipline has.

Interesting! 

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13 minutes ago, Puffs said:

Basically when you slot a crafting discipline onto your crafting vessel and level it you'll use your talent points to grant yourself the recipes that discipline has.

Think I'm missattributing the quote, this system is weird and I'm not used to it.  Regardless....

 

That is in fact interesting, but I still think it plays in to a larger design flaw.  (Flaw might be overstating but we'll go with it) where with the mixing and matching of "passive training" and "disciplines" you're potentially locking an entire account into a certain playstyle.  I've heard time and again that the drip feed of training we're getting right now is actually accelerated for testing, so potentially a player who goes harvesting / crafting will not have a viable combat character for several months until they are confident enough in their skills to deviate away and "waste points" learning to defend themselves, while a combat spec'd account can also excel at harvesting, happen upon a discipline and viola!  With no effort, no time investment, they are on the same footing as a novice crafter while sacrificing nothing.  There's a reason that "active training" (you get better at fighting, exploring and crafting by actually doing it) is the go-to standard system, but if they are married to this frankenstein's monster, and at this point I think they kinda have to be, let's stop kittyfooting around and do it right; *one* passive training line per account.  Pick something, commit to it, sacrifice for it.  But...that's another post entirely.  

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27 minutes ago, pistkitty said:

That is in fact interesting, but I still think it plays in to a larger design flaw.  (Flaw might be overstating but we'll go with it) where with the mixing and matching of "passive training" and "disciplines" you're potentially locking an entire account into a certain playstyle.  I've heard time and again that the drip feed of training we're getting right now is actually accelerated for testing, so potentially a player who goes harvesting / crafting will not have a viable combat character for several months until they are confident enough in their skills to deviate away and "waste points" learning to defend themselves, while a combat spec'd account can also excel at harvesting, happen upon a discipline and viola!  With no effort, no time investment, they are on the same footing as a novice crafter while sacrificing nothing.  There's a reason that "active training" (you get better at fighting, exploring and crafting by actually doing it) is the go-to standard system, but if they are married to this frankenstein's monster, and at this point I think they kinda have to be, let's stop kittyfooting around and do it right; *one* passive training line per account.  Pick something, commit to it, sacrifice for it.  But...that's another post entirely.  

It is true that having two day 0 accounts will make your life so much easier for a couple years. After a year or so, I don't think it will matter as much since there will be economy and established crafters. I would bet that many forum folks will have 2 or more accounts at soft launch. I had 2 accounts on bdo, eve, wildstar, gw2, eq1 and ddo, just makes sense to me if I am jumping in at the launch

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On 1/21/2019 at 5:52 PM, pistkitty said:

Think I'm missattributing the quote, this system is weird and I'm not used to it.  Regardless....

 

That is in fact interesting, but I still think it plays in to a larger design flaw.  (Flaw might be overstating but we'll go with it) where with the mixing and matching of "passive training" and "disciplines" you're potentially locking an entire account into a certain playstyle.  I've heard time and again that the drip feed of training we're getting right now is actually accelerated for testing, so potentially a player who goes harvesting / crafting will not have a viable combat character for several months until they are confident enough in their skills to deviate away and "waste points" learning to defend themselves, while a combat spec'd account can also excel at harvesting, happen upon a discipline and viola!  With no effort, no time investment, they are on the same footing as a novice crafter while sacrificing nothing.  There's a reason that "active training" (you get better at fighting, exploring and crafting by actually doing it) is the go-to standard system, but if they are married to this frankenstein's monster, and at this point I think they kinda have to be, let's stop kittyfooting around and do it right; *one* passive training line per account.  Pick something, commit to it, sacrifice for it.  But...that's another post entirely.  

I think this is by design, it's certainly true that having two accounts is better than one. I believe it is this way because they want players to dependent on others, to further help support the social environment. This is also why all professions require other professions for key components.

It is true however, considering the second training's reduction in points accumulated that a Combat/Crafting account will be much more behind versus a Crafting/Harvesting account. I definitely agree that this is a sure bummer.. I don't see why they can't allow both slots to train at the same speed? The way they have it now, it's almost forcing players to go Crafting/Harvesting, or else be behind in crafting, but instead be subpar in combat.

I definitely don't agree with the one passive line per account. That would inhibit so many players, and further increase the value of a secondary account, not to mention a third. 

Being able to train two trees at the same speed would make it much better, imo, and I don't see why they couldn't do so. It would allow a player to go Combat/Crafting, and be viable in both, and all other potential combinations, while being reliant on other players for whichever you do not choose as they want.

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8 hours ago, Puffs said:

I definitely don't agree with the one passive line per account. That would inhibit so many players, and further increase the value of a secondary account, not to mention a third. 

I'm sure they wouldn't mind the extra revenue. 

8 hours ago, Puffs said:

I think this is by design, it's certainly true that having two accounts is better than one. I believe it is this way because they want players to dependent on others, to further help support the social environment. This is also why all professions require other professions for key components.

It is absolutely by design.  Interdependence is a horrible idea, and failed miserably in eq2.  I'm just saying if they are gonna do it anyway ("it" being taking away choice by specialized career paths, gated training and interdependence) might as well go all in.   They've indicated that the game will be hostile to solo players and anyone not part of mega-guilds, so it'll probably be common for people trying to be competetive to pay for multiple accounts, emphasis "pay for".  Seems to be working.

Edited by pistkitty

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