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squarll

Why should i bother to play in alpha?

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20 hours ago, squarll said:

Ok here we go...

So i login and i want to do some pvp

Ok so first thing i must grind rocks and trees and make some stupid item so i can fast track to lvl 30 (done) ok i am ready ? no no no

you must now grind either gold or necromancy to make a new char that i also have to lvl to 30...(ok Done) now i am ready? nope

you must now grind weapons and armor and then you might be ready for a fair fight.

Don't get me wrong that in the full game i totaly expect that people who spend alot of time playing the game will be stronger than me gear and experiance wise

But this is pre-alpha ffs and yes you can go on the test server but come on who wants to play there ?

And yes you could say JOIN a GUILD well i dont want to

also if this game was fun to play then where are the 50k backers for this game? I am not talking 500 or 5000 it's 50,000 and at best (even when it's the start of a new campaign) on EU peek time you get 150 lol 150 that must tell you all you need to know about the state of this game.

Devs if you want to advertise this game over the next year the best way you could do that is to make the alpha FUN!  I log in and think f... that its far to much work to catch up when my stuff will be wiped at some point.

I bet alot of players download this and think f... it i will just wait until launch and start there, grinding to test a game.....no thanks

Squarl you are absolutely correct.  But you posting on here is just going to get you flamed by 90% of the left-overs.   You see, these people still playing ARE crafters or fabois.

You are right to be worried about the #'s as you should be. (I know the devs are, they are running a BUSINESS) When you have STEAM releasing ALPHA games that have MORE players than this game does....there's an issue.

The game has non-stop potential, unfortunately the direction its been heading is WAAAAAYYY off mark from the nostalgia backers who originally purchased this game/dream.  If you notice its the SAME few defenders on these forums trying everything they can to make you feel like "YOU" are the issue.  Its not, its the game.

In business you look at #'s.  period.  This game is already released all over youtube and its not looking promising to the vast majority of PvPers.  IMO to fix this...

1. Run the test server as a giant tool-box and let players run around maxing their characters instantly, throw in a battle-royal 24/7 with a tight map with toys/weapons lying everywhere.  Populate mobs and constantly just have exploits and break everything.  Let players come up with insane character builds racially/stat/discipline wise.  Balance from here.

2. STOP THE CRAFTING.  It needs to be stopped and full swing needs to be pushed towards combat/sieges/maps/npc/mobs.  This game already has the most insane farming/crafting simulation out of any MMO since MUDS.  Enough is enough for now.

3.  Constant wipes are killing the player-base.  The vessels are just another hash-re-hash way of forcing more grinding/leveling.  Complete a campaign..give the player a REASON to keep playing.  This isn't working. Let us keep our characters with REWARDS on them so we keep going.

I loved Shadowbane.  I loved DAOC.  I loved UO...but right now this is not what me, my friends, or the MAJORITY of backers thought they were buying into.

my 2 cents, watch yourself on here...the fanbois will eat you alive.  Lifting my glass to the devs/Todd in hoping he turns this game into the masterpiece it could be.

Wrain

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1 hour ago, Wrain said:

*rumble rumble rumble*

I think everyone would love to have everything they want as fast as they can get their hands on it, but you're missing the point of the testing period that the game is in.  The devs are releasing content they want people to play around with.  It's not in a finished state and not ready for the kind of stuff you're advocating.

As far as crafting, grand crafting and resource systems were always part of the vision.

I kickstarted in 2015.  Was sold on the destructible physics.  Sold my $250 pledge in 2017 after years of (what appeared) to be little progress.  Bought back in for 5.8.  The game has a potential to be a blast, but you have to chill and be patient.  

I would agree with you on one point ... I would love some way to get some more action in, some kind of smaller "arena" type server where you could just kit out a class and practice some organized PvP.  But again - that's not what they're testing.

If you don't like the idea of getting stuff wiped, just wait for 6.0 around the corner sometime soon

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21 hours ago, Sogar said:

That's kind of the issue to be honest. New players can get advanced white weapons and armor easily ... good quality green gear won't happen for a long while.

I've never bought into lowering advanced weapons so they are closer to intermediate weapons ... the difference between a non gimped green weapon (or armor) and a "good" white weapon/armor (and let's not talk about blue) is a way bigger issue if you ask me.

Now, I understand that there need to be a difference between white/green/blue to give an incensive to harvest quality materials (and yeah there is a huge difference between farming white, green or blue materials) but the fact that you need green weapons AND armor to be able to stand your ground is a big problem for the new player experience if you ask me so I kinda undestand where the OP comes from.

 

And while I do agree that new players aren't as useful as the big guilds for testing pre-alpha, we still need frest blood for plenty of reasons (server stability for example) and the bad press that comes with bad new player experience is also something to consider.

Green weapons take less than an hour in the zombie pit hitting r7 nodes with a runetool made with 0 skill in runemaking with minimal gathering skills.

Green armor not that much harder with the exception of leather which is BS recipe costs.
The upgrades after green isnt as big of a deal since the gap is much smaller. green is 7 exp pip blue is only 8, epics are 9 (And super expensive to roll decent due to 5 chaos embers a reroll and legendary is 10 pips. Quite often greens will roll better than blues until u get 60 skill in expermentation for that craft which people are only just realy hitting, epics and above are for thoise rich/lucky people since with the reroll system rerolling a blue will usualy always come out better than a non rerolled epic but rerolling a blue is 50 dust where epic is eqiov to 375 dust.)
2 1h weapons is about 45 resources and 2hder at 90, you get 2-4 greens a node takes 1-2 stamina bars to clear a node in the zombie pit. it honostly takes no time at all. Now if u want wood u can stand by a lumbermill and farm the chests if u realy want for green and blue wood every 2 minutes (Great in winter tbh this is how i got the wood for a blue bow)

u can get -17 to -25 rune tools with using cobble stone, knotwood and slag and 10 dust with 0 runemaking skill this will farm up to r8 fairly efficiently.

Edited by veeshan

Veeshan Midst of UXA

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1 minute ago, veeshan said:

Green weapons take less than an hour in the zombie pit hitting r7 nodes with a runetool made with 0 skill in runemaking with minimal gathering skills.

Green armor not that much harder with the exception of leather which is BS recipe costs.
The upgrades after green isnt as big of a deal since the gap is much smaller.
2 1h weapons is about 45 resources and 2hder at 90, you get 2-4 greens a node takes 1-2 stamina bars to clear a node in the zombie pit. it honostly takes no time at all. Now if u want wood u can stand by a lumbermill and farm the chests if u realy want for green and blue wood every 2 minutes (Great in winter tbh this is how i got the wood for a blue bow)

I know all that but do remember we are talking about new players (and yeah I'm a leather worker ... worst decision ever).

First there is the knowledge barrier as you pointed out. I guess as a player base we could/should work on alleviating that problem. While all the knowledge is there on the forum, it never seemed practical to me, I guess we should form a general new player guide with links to every aspect of the game that we can post on this forum and reddit. Right now, general chat is helping a lot of new players so this issue is definetly going to get worse when general chat is gone.

Secondly, as you pointed out you need corresponding passive skills (and disc but more on that later).

IMO, you have 3 types of new players. The first one is here to discover the game wholy and is willing to join an "established" guild. This guy won't get any issue doing all that because of the support of the veterans in the guild, especially since they should have an established blacksmith. Then you have the guy that comes to play with his friends and start a guild of new players. Even if they get the knowledge and organise themselves it will take a few weeks before their blacksmith get enough passive training for green crafting. During that time they will get continuously ganked while trying to farm those pits (because pits are prime ganking area especially with how easy it is to know if no one is there with spies). There is a good chance that all those encounters where they feel "wronged" by the game will make them fed up before even having the gear to compete (and yeah that's considering they pass the knowledge barrier which will take some time). Finally, you have the solo players who is here to test the waters because "5/8 brought campaign and it looks like a game". Those have it even worse than the group of friends.

So yeah, for the first type of new players ... unless they decide on a leather wearing class (which they probably should not since they joined a veteran guild that should have told them not to but that's another issue lol) green equipment is not a big issue. For the other types it definetly is and, to be honest, with the coming disappearance of general chat and later the easy access to runes and runes swapping it's only going to get worse. 

While I get it's pre-alpha, we are getting very close to alpha and all I see is an increasing issue more than a decreasing one. Yes, we will all start with intermediate gear but "veteran guild" will have their specialised characters very fast and work on getting that green advanced equipment pretty fast ... the others won't.

 

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1 hour ago, Sogar said:

First there is the knowledge barrier as you pointed out. I guess as a player base we could/should work on alleviating that problem. While all the knowledge is there on the forum, it never seemed practical to me, I guess we should form a general new player guide with links to every aspect of the game that we can post on this forum and reddit. Right now, general chat is helping a lot of new players so this issue is definetly going to get worse when general chat is gone.

Like a wiki or something would be wonderful.

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Or you talk to the established players and find out what they need.

And do a trade. Your time and effort for aid getting gear until you can supply your own gear. 

There are always options. You just choose to do what you will. 

Also this is a test. Not a game. The real game is not even close to done yet.

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2 minutes ago, srathor said:

Or you talk to the established players and find out what they need.

And do a trade. Your time and effort for aid getting gear until you can supply your own gear. 

There are always options. You just choose to do what you will. 

Also this is a test. Not a game. The real game is not even close to done yet.

All of that’s reasonable for an mmo with a complex crafting system but that’s not what they want.  They want a moba.  They didn’t do their research about what Blair (the lead custard dev) is famous for making: Complex crafting systems.  They hired Ralph’s koster to help him make it (another developer who makes complicated crafting systems).  You’ve come to the wrong game if you want something else people and shame on you for not doing your research about who’s making the game.  


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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12 hours ago, Wrain said:

Lifting my glass to the devs/Todd

While I'd like what you are suggesting, it's more so for my entertainment and not faster/better development. Giving everyone maxed characters or whatever wouldn't do anything to speed up optimization or complete any of the missing features/systems. Your suggestion would likely bring in more people but at the same time, some would likely be turned off due to the lag and missing features which make this still far from a release product. It's fun for those that don't mind playing/testing for what it is. I do believe more structured testing would speed up certain things to catch bugs, but then again I don't make games for a living so I don't know much.

I can't say the current "game" or future version will be exactly what I backed or hoped for, but it is turning into something decent and if it actually functions, will likely be semi popular with the crowd(s) it is aimed at.

Honestly believe it would be in ACE's interest to just shut off testing for X amount of time. Be it servers off or just no specific work going towards fixing bugs or whatever that people are "needing" asap. Just put their heads down and finish the big picture stuff. A well optimized, feature rich test version would be better than having a BR or maxed characters to screw around with. Having both at some point wouldn't hurt though.

Believe I'm one of the more critical backers that doesn't just agree with whatever the devs do and at this point they should just keep on doing what they have and hopefully it works out. If not, I'm out a little money but they are out of a job and respect from us.

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On 1/20/2019 at 2:25 PM, squarll said:

Ok here we go...

So i login and i want to do some pvp

Ok so first thing i must grind rocks and trees and make some stupid item so i can fast track to lvl 30 (done) ok i am ready ? no no no

you must now grind either gold or necromancy to make a new char that i also have to lvl to 30...(ok Done) now i am ready? nope

you must now grind weapons and armor and then you might be ready for a fair fight.

Don't get me wrong that in the full game i totaly expect that people who spend alot of time playing the game will be stronger than me gear and experiance wise

But this is pre-alpha ffs and yes you can go on the test server but come on who wants to play there ?

And yes you could say JOIN a GUILD well i dont want to

also if this game was fun to play then where are the 50k backers for this game? I am not talking 500 or 5000 it's 50,000 and at best (even when it's the start of a new campaign) on EU peek time you get 150 lol 150 that must tell you all you need to know about the state of this game.

Devs if you want to advertise this game over the next year the best way you could do that is to make the alpha FUN!  I log in and think f... that its far to much work to catch up when my stuff will be wiped at some point.

I bet alot of players download this and think f... it i will just wait until launch and start there, grinding to test a game.....no thanks

What do you believe you would provide to testing and development if things were done in a way you found more acceptable?

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I think OP needs to realise that in future they don't need to gather. Right now, they have to gather due to the fact spirit bank is not working as they want it to as its still a work in progress. Once spirit banks can no longer be use out in the field, they will get a lot of materials from PvP. that removes the need for gathering materials themselves.

Secondly, they also don't need to craft. They can just find someone to craft the item. But right now, with the way spirit bank is, they need to gather materials, build up their gear etc. If this version is not fun, stop playing and wait till the version where spirit bank is fully implemented.

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I think in the last couple of years people went so crazy about games, that they are willing to pay lots of money for betas/alphas which sometimes leads to huge dissappiontment. This is great bullux in my eyes, but i did this myself. You get some nice rewards for it but now i think its not worth it. And its a lot of frustration involved cause the games don`t work as they should or have a lots of bugs which you have to report which is also some sort of work you do for the developer, and you even pay for it. Just think about it.

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5 hours ago, sanfall said:

I think OP needs to realise that in future they don't need to gather. Right now, they have to gather due to the fact spirit bank is not working as they want it to as its still a work in progress. Once spirit banks can no longer be use out in the field, they will get a lot of materials from PvP. that removes the need for gathering materials themselves.

Secondly, they also don't need to craft. They can just find someone to craft the item. But right now, with the way spirit bank is, they need to gather materials, build up their gear etc. If this version is not fun, stop playing and wait till the version where spirit bank is fully implemented.

Or the OP can join a guild and play the game as intended.  A division of labor makes the logistics of this game manageable.  


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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As far as I am concerned, after a little chat with Mandalore, I'm good with the direction things are going.

It seems that devs do recognize that there is an issue with the new player experience right now (which is really all I wanted to hear), it just is not their priority to fix it in the very near future (and yeah I agree it should not).

For the state the game is right now (pre-alpha) joining a community/guild is a perfectly acceptable workaround and I guess people need to understand that we are quite far from the finished version. The fact that new players "need" to join a community now does not mean it will always be like that and devs want it to be like that for their game at release. It's the best workaround we have access in pre-alpha nothing more nothing less.

Their is still a long way to go and a lot of testing to do before "new player experience" get to the top of the todo list so either you bear with it for now or you wait a good bit before coming back (and I mean really a fair bit lol). Clearly, I wish it would be in for alpha (because it will probably be an iterative process) but there are a ton of more important things that they need to address before that (like stability).

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1 hour ago, Sogar said:

For the state the game is right now (pre-alpha) joining a community/guild is a perfectly acceptable workaround and I guess people need to understand that we are quite far from the finished version. The fact that new players "need" to join a community now does not mean it will always be like that and devs want it to be like that for their game at release. It's the best workaround we have access in pre-alpha nothing more nothing less.

Needing to be social in a MMO is not a workaround. ACE seems to have made it fairly clear that they want this to be a team game with a lot of interdependence. If a player or small groups "wants" to do it on their own, they should have that option, but it shouldn't be the default or path of least resistance.

Having to learn, struggle, fail, improve isn't evil game design.

As you mentioned and seem to realize, it is early still and much isn't reflective of what will be eventually. Those dipping their toes in that get scared off easy can either tough it out, come back when it is more developed, or run away and never come back.

IMO, there doesn't need to be too much hand holding that removes the effort/skill required to excel in these games. If someone can't be bothered to figure out how to do X and just want it handed to them, oh well.

Honestly don't see the point of wanting to be entirely solo or even a small group in such a game beyond wanting to be an OP ganker for the lulz or something. Pretty much every aspect is focused on team play. Not that small groups can't work with larger or other small groups, but numbers are a major factor overall.

People that are used to rolling through dungeons silently with a group facerolling monsters, playing BRs a lone, or team games (Overwatch/League) with no intention of being a team player are likely not going to enjoy Crowfall.

An amazing new player experience explaining the ins and outs of everything isn't going to actually allow solo players to do more than they can do without the explanation. It is a team game and we need each other.

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I don't like the whole walled process of having to grind up every little thing in order to be PvP ready. I gave up halfway through. I don't want to drop this game in my trash bin just yet, but it's getting damn near close with the direction they're currently pushing. Regardless of whether or not this is an Alpha, community feedback is important, but only a privileged few are able to speak for the masses, and they're spouting stuff that we don't want to hear while the devs slurp it up like it's their last supper. 

I've already said what I needed to say, but I'll say it again. They're trying to push PvE onto us when there's not enough mobs to actually give this game a PvE base. They want people to level up, when there's no real way to level up outside of crafting a stupid Disc first. Which is honestly a PITA and shouldn't be a thing in order to actually enjoy the game. Well sorry, this isn't a "game" yet. I might be flamed by the loyal fans who fight over the table scraps ACE drops for them to tear up. The point being, their "progression" introduction is shoddy, unrefined and draconian at best. 

Edited by RhapsodyDownpour

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1 hour ago, APE said:

Honestly don't see the point of wanting to be entirely solo or even a small group in such a game beyond wanting to be an OP ganker for the lulz or something. Pretty much every aspect is focused on team play. Not that small groups can't work with larger or other small groups, but numbers are a major factor overall.

People that are used to rolling through dungeons silently with a group facerolling monsters, playing BRs a lone, or team games (Overwatch/League) with no intention of being a team player are likely not going to enjoy Crowfall.

An amazing new player experience explaining the ins and outs of everything isn't going to actually allow solo players to do more than they can do without the explanation. It is a team game and we need each other.

A "good" new player experience does not mean that solo playing should be viable or as competitive as being part of a "big" guild. That's anything but what I say. This game DNA is guild PvP (or maybe faction if players want it to be that) and should always be that, clearly a team based game (and not a 5 man team MOBA like game).

As the name implicate new player experience is all about new players. Like I said before, a good number of new players aren't going to be willing to get in a guild from the get-go. The biggest reason (and that's mostly true for "modern" players) is that they will want to test out the waters before investing in it and they consider joining a guild/community somme kind of promise for implication from their part (after all they are getting a huge help from the guild they should also give back). Some don't for other reasons and that's fine because we should not force them to join a community they should understand and feel the need to do it if they want to invest themselves in the game (that's especially true if you want them to contribute to the community). Right now, we are not there and that's why I said new players needing to join a guild/community is a workaround.

A good example (because of obvious longetivity) would be Eve Online. Sure, the new player experience was/is mostly PvE and far from perfect but after the tutorial you get to enjoy the different aspect of the game at your own pace without needing to join a guild. Whatever you decide to do, joining a community/guild becomes the natural path for becoming more competitive and progress in the game. Clearly Eve Online is a guild driven game but players have the opportunity to discover the game at their own pace before getting into the "real" part of it. More so than the tutorial missions that's what define their new player experience in my mind. Now I'm not saying Crowfall should be the exact same as both games have their own particularities and way of doing things (concurrent campaigns, EKs instead of protected space) but the purpose behind it should probably be similar.

Right now, new players that get into the game have a very limited experience in the safe environment and once they get into the PvP zones they feel like lambs waiting to get slaughtered (unless they play during off hours maybe). It definetly changes once they join a guild which is the reason they need to do it but the way it happens is way to abrupt.

As I said, the fact that there is a workaround for this is good enough for the state of the development of the game but there definetly need to work on it before launch because otherwise there is going to be a backlash.

 

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46 minutes ago, RhapsodyDownpour said:

I don't like the whole walled process of having to grind up every little thing in order to be PvP ready. I gave up halfway through. I don't want to drop this game in my trash bin just yet, but it's getting damn near close with the direction they're currently pushing. Regardless of whether or not this is an Alpha, community feedback is important, but only a privileged few are able to speak for the masses, and they're spouting stuff that we don't want to hear while the devs slurp it up like it's their last supper. 

I've already said what I needed to say, but I'll say it again. They're trying to push PvE onto us when there's not enough mobs to actually give this game a PvE base. They want people to level up, when there's no real way to level up outside of crafting a stupid Disc first. Which is honestly a PITA and shouldn't be a thing in order to actually enjoy the game. Well sorry, this isn't a "game" yet. I might be flamed by the loyal fans who fight over the table scraps ACE drops for them to tear up. The point being, their "progression" introduction is shoddy, unrefined and draconian at best. 

I think its quite nice and the grind could be worse, take DAOC. You can get most stuff with leveling and advanced gear in like 10-15 hours, thats quite ok for me because for me harvesting is fun. But at the moment if everything is wiped over and over again my motivation to test over and over again is quite small.

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Bottom line answer to "why should I bother to play in alpha?" is to test, give feeback, and help make the game better. If you get frustrated with the current build for whatever reason, post your feedback in a constructive manner and then take a break until the next build to see what's been changed.


tiPrpwh.png

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On 1/21/2019 at 8:45 AM, mandalore said:

Are you sure you read up about the game you backed?  What do you think CF has always been?  With the devs involved what the custard did you think CF was going to be?  

To be honest, with everything I had read before I backed the game, I really was expecting something more along the lines of a Mincraft/DAoC type hybrid,  something akin to a game like Trove™ going Realms vs Realms, with the idea of non-static/randomized campaign worlds, endless options for world building and exploration as well as  being able to teraform the landscape, a fully destructible yet RvR centered world that were on time frames till they died away and we needed to start the battles anew, but, you know, with less voxel style graphics.

That was what I was expecting from the videos and advertisements I saw.. apparently.. that is not the case.

 

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