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The 5.8 Templar - A Constructive Post


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Hi,

It's been a while since I went a rant about the role of the Templar in Crowfall (See the Ghosts of Furor and Tigole post).  However, I did promise to write a more constructive post later and now 5.8 is here and the different Templar trees have been out a bit I think it's a good time to bring my thoughts to the table.  JToddColeman, here's some food for 'Diving' thought.  =). 

I initially was going to break down all the abilities and go one by one about the pros/cons. However,  I think those have been well documented and  instead,, I'm just going to focus on things the Templar needs to be completely fleshed out.   I've played Templar, still playing Templar and will be in the future and I want the class to have a role in many situations and not just pigeon holed to do one specific thing.

One of the things I'm going to do is refer to the WoW Paladin alot.  I feel, thought different games, I can draw a lot of similarities about the evolution of the Wow Pally and bring it into the context of Crowfal Templarl.  Understand, I was a Grand Marshal Ret Paladin in Wow and played that for 4 years total playing time.  So I can confidently say I know my Hybrid Class stuff.

The 1st thing is and my greatest concern is...

Mobility:   I can say with confidence we are the Pylons of Crowfall.  Not only is a plate wearing human the slowest PC in the game our main ability (Righteous Stand) slows us down ever further.  To add to that, the amount of snares, stuns, staggers, knockdowns in this game is moderately high.  However, even in our up time we are chasing with cement blocks on our feet.  This is endlessly frustrating.  In any PVP environment, lack of mobility = death.  In Wow they solved this with the paladin by...

1) they gave an ability (judgment) to increase movement speed for a time. 

2) The also have an ability to cleanse roots/stuns. 

3) We had the ability to range Stun (Templar CC is garbage).

So even though they are slow in general Templars would be able to have limited bursts of speed and limit the down time where they are slow.  Also stun would help if the target got out of range.

DPS and PIPS:  I've lumped these together because I believe they are related.  First of all, I can confidently say Paladins have probably the lowest DPS in the game (barring someone sitting in a DPS paladin's Divinelight).   1st of all, the animation is well...comical, creative..but comical.  No one ever would swing a sword like that but that's beside the point.  The animation is slow.  All other  attacks cycles are faster.  The assassin can hit you 2-3 times before u swing once.  The knight can pump out more dps at lvl 10 that a templar at 30 by just swinging a bastard sword.  The creators should really look at real Zweihänder fighting.  The motions are very circular and fluent meant to maim or disarm.  Or even Kendo, where the strikes are fast and furious.   The sword stance they should have the Templar in is Hasou No Kamae, (quick stance) and use quick overblows.    The parry should be a Left Ox hanging guard...I guess it sorta of does.  Anyhow, I'm  digressing, the animation needs to be fluid/faster, right now the animation is akward and segmented.   This brings me to my next point, pip generation.  To only gain a pip on the 3rd blow where sometimes the opponent's gotten out of range, not good.  Every strike should generate a pip and strikes should be faster.  Lastly, how does a dagger do the same dmg as 2Hsword.   The Dmg scaling needs to be fixed but they need to make templar sword do more dmg.  Are up time is limited, when we hit we have to burst.

1) Faster Animation

2) Templars swords need more dmg.

3) Pip Generation on Every Hit.

 

Survivability: Now from the outside it may look like we have good survivability however we don't.  First of all, our main healing skill is Divine Light, it's great except when it's not...which is 90% of the time.   It only heals when people sit in it.  No one does.  When people don't sit in it, I lose pips which kills my ability to do much.  It's pretty much lose/lose.  It's severely limited and side from the paladin spec it's pretty much useless (because everyone steps out of it and waits).  Also, it's on a huge cool down so I can't create multiple control zones.   I reiterate though, Losing pips is the worst.  Devotion, well it would be good except 1) Our dmg stinks so our devotion heals like crap(we hit 6 mobs with a retaliate and do  5000 dmg)  2)  Our up time is limited due to our lack of mobility and Anti-CC abilities (Holy Warrior doesn't count).

In WOW they gave paladins an ability that consumed pips that they could flash heal themselves or others (Flash of Light?).  I'd like to see an ability like this.  Also we had an ability that gave a physical dmg shield to someone or ourselves (but also made us unable to attack, fair trade).  

1) Flash of Light Ability

2) Wow Devotion like shield (NOT THE BUBBLE).

So here are some of my thoughts regarding the Templar. I didn't go into each spec but in general I wanted to outline the things I feel the Templar needed.   I used several Wow references because to be honest, it took them a long time to get it right and I feel there's no harm to learn from their mistakes.  I welcome your thoughts.  

Thank you (no salt),

 

Vesperre

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Vesperre
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I've tried all 3 templar specs and I'm in agreement that mobility, damage, and survivability are all components of the templar that need addressed. I will just offer bullet point ideas to further along the discussion:

  • Give them a shield, while keeping their overall DPS output the same(it is quite low, though I would be curious to know where ACE thinks any flavor of Templar is on the DPS charts), consider some shield abilities to increase survivability but not on the right mouse button!
  • Move Righteous stand off of the right mouse button
  • Separate the damage and the heal of divine light. Let the damage stay in the deploy radius, as is, but move the heal to a group heal over time similar to crusader cleric's illuminate.

Perhaps some of these changes would be too much. Just posting food for thought.

 

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10 hours ago, Recht said:

I've tried all 3 templar specs and I'm in agreement that mobility, damage, and survivability are all components of the templar that need addressed. I will just offer bullet point ideas to further along the discussion:

  • Give them a shield, while keeping their overall DPS output the same(it is quite low, though I would be curious to know where ACE thinks any flavor of Templar is on the DPS charts), consider some shield abilities to increase survivability but not on the right mouse button!
  • Move Righteous stand off of the right mouse button
  • Separate the damage and the heal of divine light. Let the damage stay in the deploy radius, as is, but move the heal to a group heal over time similar to crusader cleric's illuminate.

Perhaps some of these changes would be too much. Just posting food for thought.

 

THank you for your input.  These changes are just a list of possible solutions.  The implementation of some or even a single suggestion may be enough to bring us to a better place.  However,  you can see where I'm coming from . I want to give the devs a comprehensive laundry list of issues.

 

Cheers,

 

 

Vesperre

Edited by Vesperre
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I think the only time knights do more dmg than a templar is when there 1 target just swinging at each other. The moment parry come into play on templar they do alot more dmg and CC spam than a knight. also if there more than 1 target the templar also does more dps than a knight (95% of attacks on knight only hit 1 target there like 2 exceptions and 1 is dog poorly made socks and the other takes to much energy) also if any targets are below 50% hp or what ever execute range is i forget off the top of my head templar do more dmg then aswell.

Ive played both knights and templars and it safe to say knights are lowest dps class in the game right now and there survival is worst out of all the tank classes. They do have good mobility though.

Now back on topic Templar are probaly the best 1v1 class in a fight to the death withing melee range, however u can never finish a fight cause anyoen who looses can just walk away which is funny cause templars are also the only class that has an execute ability in there kit from my understanding which is pointless cause people just walk away and u cant do squat about it :P they are weaker agaist any range class though, i typically run mole hunter on my paladin for the ranged root cause i need to hit thing to heal and people like to run also allow me to somwhat pressure range classes they still have the advantage though.
 

anyway changes i would make to templar would be:

General Change
-Give them a range slow ability not super long range but like 20 meters this allows the Templar to stick on the target a little easier mean paladin get more heals from devotion and dps can do a bit more dmg and helps templar actual finish somone off for a change.

- Make there leap ground targeted to allow for better aiming/easier use


There DPS tree (Top 1)

needs a buff to there gap closer ability (Shorter cooldown or someway to reduce its CD)
 

Paladins
Should be fine with just the general changes

CC templar
This is my veiw point on every class that has a CC path is that right now they feel complely useless cause anti CC is way too strong classesd who specilise in CC such as this one, Sentinels and all the other CC classes should have a benefit to them to counteract anti CC mechanics atm.
- Either allow them to CC through CC immunity, Have there CC apply debuff that makes retaliate cost an additional 15 stamina when used, Have CC from these classes apply a debuff that prevent the use of retaliate being used for X seconds (Based on CC control stat) They all need something to bypass the anti CC mechanics in some way cause right now these build basicly make you do 0 dmg and 0 CC effectiveness due to how retaliate works atm. These classes were designed to CC and they should be able to fulfil that roll. Retaliate is fine as it is for all the other archtype that arnt CC focused so these thing should only be available in the CC archtype tree for there respective class.


 

Veeshan Midst of UXA

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In general I am a fan of the design decision that some classes should be better at some things than others. However, I feel like the degree at which they pidgeon-holed the Templar into being a fixed point dominator (The lack of reliable pip generation is compounded by the lack of mobility required to chase down and hit things to build pips) has diminished their viability of fighting in any other situation. The solutions provided by Vesperre in the mobility and dps category would be steps in the right direction to bring this class up into being viable in more diverse situations. Taking inspiration from other suggestions in the thread, here is my proposed solution:

Make divine light a player-based aoe ability that attaches to and follows the Templar (or another ally?) where ever they go. Along with this, attach a movement speed bonus buff (25%-ish) to the duration that divine light persists.

Each subclass of the templar has a unique morph to the divine light ability and all of them look good on paper but fall short in practicality with the fixed nature of the ability. This change kills two birds with one stone (mobility and gets them out of the fixed point pidgeon-hole dilemna) and covers each subclass equally well. With this change the new way to counter a templar is to kite the templar instead of simply stepping out of an aoe. Outplaying a person is far more interesting than outplaying a stationary red circle on the floor.

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Mobility : I agree on the Templar this is needed to a degree or possibly turning censure into a slow instead of a hard stun or give us a small speed boost after landing.  This can be offset with friar (doesnt work with trailmaster), elken to a degree but not ideal, or bard . I'm not finding the lack of mobility to hindering in solo or group but something that would allow us to attempt to secure our kills would be nice. 

DPS & Pips : I haven't had an issue in pip generation with any of the 3 versions.  The Paladin has it the easiest though.  I would like to see the 3rd hit dropped to 2 if they feel the need for it or there would be no use for the righteous smash. The DPS does seem very low on the Templar but you have to becareful because the Paladin will benefit greatly from it.  The Fury is lacking in dps and the cc doesnt make up for it. I didn't find the DPS one to be nearly as fun as the other 2 unfortunately the DPS increase didn't seem to be much greater than the Paladin.   About the animations they could be shorter or smoother. Its kind of dumb how we can animation break all of them but if we don't especially on divine light we make ourselves vulnerable to multiple attacks.

Survivability:  One vs One this class is beast.  Paladin is the strongest out of the bunch and finding the fury to be pretty solid too.    On the fury I'm finding the hp buff to be a bit underwhelming it would be nice if it applied maybe half the hp value buff to the group?  Vindicators I cant comment on the damage increase due to lack of play time on them.  The key to all the templars is getting the group to stay in the blazing light or to make sure to ride the edges if they need heals.   So far I haven't had an issue keeping people near me but it took a little bit to get people to trust in the Paladins healing & Fury CC /Minor Healing and stay in the light.

General:

Leap needs to be ground based aoe so we don't have the issues where it doesn't stun or we bounce so far off the target that the stun is pointless.

3rd attack tic generation is annoying maybe to add a slow to it on 3rd hit ? This way if we get to our target we can actually stay on target plus get rewarded for the pip?

Fire damage increase. Only skill this applies to is blazing light?  The Vindicator gets more but seems kind of useless to go more fire when it only applies to one spell. Also when our other option is to holy warrior for holy damage.

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On 1/27/2019 at 6:25 PM, MrErad said:

 

 

Mobility : I agree on the Templar this is needed to a degree or possibly turning censure into a slow instead of a hard stun or give us a small speed boost after landing.  This can be offset with friar (doesnt work with trailmaster), elken to a degree but not ideal, or bard . I'm not finding the lack of mobility to hindering in solo or group but something that would allow us to attempt to secure our kills would be nice. 

DPS & Pips : I haven't had an issue in pip generation with any of the 3 versions.  The Paladin has it the easiest though.  I would like to see the 3rd hit dropped to 2 if they feel the need for it or there would be no use for the righteous smash. The DPS does seem very low on the Templar but you have to becareful because the Paladin will benefit greatly from it.  The Fury is lacking in dps and the cc doesnt make up for it. I didn't find the DPS one to be nearly as fun as the other 2 unfortunately the DPS increase didn't seem to be much greater than the Paladin.   About the animations they could be shorter or smoother. Its kind of dumb how we can animation break all of them but if we don't especially on divine light we make ourselves vulnerable to multiple attacks.

Survivability:  One vs One this class is beast.  Paladin is the strongest out of the bunch and finding the fury to be pretty solid too.    On the fury I'm finding the hp buff to be a bit underwhelming it would be nice if it applied maybe half the hp value buff to the group?  Vindicators I cant comment on the damage increase due to lack of play time on them.  The key to all the templars is getting the group to stay in the blazing light or to make sure to ride the edges if they need heals.   So far I haven't had an issue keeping people near me but it took a little bit to get people to trust in the Paladins healing & Fury CC /Minor Healing and stay in the light.

General:

Leap needs to be ground based aoe so we don't have the issues where it doesn't stun or we bounce so far off the target that the stun is pointless.

3rd attack tic generation is annoying maybe to add a slow to it on 3rd hit ? This way if we get to our target we can actually stay on target plus get rewarded for the pip?

Fire damage increase. Only skill this applies to is blazing light?  The Vindicator gets more but seems kind of useless to go more fire when it only applies to one spell. Also when our other option is to holy warrior for holy damage.

 

Yes a faster animation and some kinds of movement buff.  I don't agree about the survivability though we all have our own experiences.   Thanks for the feedback.

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