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mandalore

Is in gaming spying an exploit?

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@untuin you think in game spying is an exploit?  I read the TOS as I can lie to players, I can sabotage players, I can steal from players, I can betray players but I can’t do any of that to the dev team. You think using alt accounts to spy on factions is an exploit? 

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Starting a new thread for this? I am not going to copy paste. You either have confused me for someone else, or didn't read what I wrote.

I, and others in the feedback thread, specifically consider parking spy/camera alts by the gates where they can't be killed an exploit of the new player protections. I asked them to remove the runegate shield, so that spies can be countered by the community. I also pointed out that if they wanted to ban multiaccounting due to community feedback, that's their right.  Just the act of spying using alt accounts is unsporting, but not an exploit imo. I even said ACE has essentially endorsed it, so spy away.

On the TOS, there are limits to what is acceptable. It is ACE's descretion. For example, impersonating another player is expressly forbidden. Another poster pointed out that you are refering to the Rules of Conduct, not the TOS. At a second glance, spying isn't endorsed their either, but other shenanigans are.

I have said my piece on the subject, and don't care too much if they leave it as is.

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Let's see what dictionary.com has to say.

noun Digital Technology.

  1. a flaw in hardware or software that is vulnerable to hacking or other cyberattacks.
  2. a piece of software that takes advantage of such a flaw to compromise a computer system or network.
(in a video game) the use of a bug or flaw in game design to a player’s advantage or to the disadvantage of other players.

 

Unless you think owning more than one account (something that every game I've ever played allows) is a flaw then this is not an exploit.

Furthermore, spying is a large part of any pvp game.  Some people know how to outsmart the players spying and will win regardless of how much intel the opponent has.

I'd also like to argue that spying adds an additional layer to GvG via counter intelligence, double agents, and all sorts of things that the intelligence community utilizes in real life. 

Edited by CurvedJohnson

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I don't think spying is an exploit.

Zybak2, 3, 4... is working within the TOS, and assuming it's is actually Zybak he's being rather honorable (as spys go) by not misrepresenting himself as being another player.

If I purchase another account, and create a character with the intention of using him a a plant within another guild/faction, that's also within the TOS. It's far less honorable because I'm intentionally misrepresenting myself as being a unique player with the other faction's interest at heart, but it's not an exploit.

If I find some way to present myself within the game as being Mandalore or any other player, that's an exploit.

Not that I support spying. In my experience spying is generally not good for the community, since it creates a general distrust of new players, but it's not an exploit. 

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4 minutes ago, VaMei said:

 

Not that I support spying. In my experience spying is generally not good for the community, since it creates a general distrust of new players, but it's not an exploit. 

Wait till somebody gets a tree stolen.  It’s always funny, always.  

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5 minutes ago, CurvedJohnson said:

I'd also like to argue that spying adds an additional layer to GvG via counter intelligence, double agents, and all sorts of things that the intelligence community utilizes in real life. 

The difference is that in real life, you are who you are. Being a double agent is a full time job, you don't have an alt body you can occupy at will. In game, we take you at your word or we don't, and you can change accounts at will, or even dual box.

Still, I agree that it's not an exploit.

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1 minute ago, VaMei said:

The difference is that in real life, you are who you are. Being a double agent is a full time job, you don't have an alt body you can occupy at will. In game, we take you at your word or we don't, and you can change accounts at will, or even dual box.

Still, I agree that it's not an exploit.

If we were to hold everything to real life standards in a video game, no one would be allowed to revive after dying.  I don't think it's practical to hold one aspect of gameplay to that and not the rest. 

You can certainly draw ideas off of real life but you can't expect them to work exactly the same way.

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2 minutes ago, mandalore said:

Wait till somebody gets a tree stolen.  It’s always funny, always.  

EvE has some of the most epic stories of spying and double agency. Makes for great stories. Really sucks being a line grunt when your faction is betrayed and you loose everything.

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21 minutes ago, CurvedJohnson said:

If we were to hold everything to real life standards in a video game, no one would be allowed to revive after dying.  I don't think it's practical to hold one aspect of gameplay to that and not the rest. 

You can certainly draw ideas off of real life but you can't expect them to work exactly the same way.

I agree. ACE can not stop us from spying, and we can not prevent it either. The only player you can trust 100% is one you can throat punch in real life if they betray you. View everyone else with some measure of caution.

That's my pragmatic view of it. That doesn't mean I support or encourage spying, or would be willing to do it myself.

Edited by VaMei

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If it's an "exploit", by definition its a problem with the code.  If it's a problem with code, then it should be fixed. So put in a bug report and add it to the pile.  

But it's not.

Having two accounts, and having both those accounts having the same rights and privileges of protection in the "faction" setting that every other account has is not against the rules, nor is it a problem with the code, so it's not an exploit.

The solution for players not wanting to deal with that, is to stay out of faction locked games, (when those are available), and only play on worlds that allow for personal retaliation against any player or account, so when you see spies, you can kill them.  

If however you want to talk about ALT accounts being "exploitable", that's a different thing altogether. 

The answer is, yes they can be leveraged to give one person an advantage that single accounts will not have.  But that also is not an exploit, especially since it is possible for two different players to do the same thing through cooperation, that a single player can do through multiple accounts. Provided there is enough range of options within a single account to effectively play the game, there is no need to use multiple accounts, only preference.

NOTE: Until the change of two full passive training lines and talents, addition of crafting discs equippable by vessel, and passive race/class training, I didn't think there was enough range of options in a single account, but now I do.

 I could just as easily have a friend with an account on the opposite team that does nothing but stand in one place watching people coming and going.  It could still be called a "cheap" by scrubs if done by two people as it is with one, and frankly part of playing to win within the given game rules.

Anyone saying otherwise, is just being a scrub.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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Exploit means exactly using the rules to an unfair advantage. Exploiting the code would be hacking or whatever.

I would consider making better rules, but meh, that would make me a scrub it seems.

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I am one that is rather annoyed by Zybak's use of spies at the Runegates. 

In my noobishness the other day, instead of whining about it, I bought another account to camp out and kill his alts when they were on. I was not aware at the time that a player of an opposing faction would die when they get too close. 

I'm OK with spying, backstabbing, etc etc, all of that as long as there are counters to the spies once discovered. In Zybak's case, there is no counter short of DDOSing the Crowfall servers lol, which makes it a moot point.

 

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13 minutes ago, mandalore said:

You truly think me using multiple accounts to spy is an exploit of the game? 

No. You doing it the most dumb and cheap way? Yes. Look, like I said, it is not the spying that is the problem, it is how it is done.

Edited by BarriaKarl

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41 minutes ago, BarriaKarl said:

Abusing faction immunity (or any other such gimmicks) would probably classify such as exploiting. If you want to spy do it properly. It is all about how it is done.

This.  Spying is great, but spying without repercussions or the opportunity to counter it in the factions system is annoying.  If we're talking about GvG and the Dregs and you recruit someone without vetting them?  That's on you.  But parking dudes on each runegate with no way to counter them and abusing their faction protection is a bit weak.

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Just now, mandalore said:

Okay okay so you all hate faction camping; how would you stop it? 

No easy way.

How about this.  Anyone staying in the runegate protection radius for more than 2 minutes gets disconnected.

Would make it annoying enough to possibly stop people.

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1 minute ago, excellz said:

 

No easy way.

How about this.  Anyone staying in the runegate protection radius for more than 2 minutes gets disconnected.

Would make it annoying enough to possibly stop people.

It’s not just annoying there is no current way in the game to do that.  Game doesn’t even DC you for being afk afaik so I doubt the tech is even available.  

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