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mandalore

Is in gaming spying an exploit?

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Report traitor. If your faction think you are a traitor you are toast whether that is true or not.

Once a certain number of faction players report an account it loses its faction immunity?

Could work. Would be interesting to try at least.

Edited by BarriaKarl

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Just now, BarriaKarl said:

Report traitor. If your faction think you are a traitor you are toast whether that is true or not.

Once a certain number of faction players report an account it loses its faction immunity?

Could wok. Would be interesting to try see at least.

Yea so Pann can get a thousand emails about political alliegence and then have to decide if something is credible or not and what actions needed to be handled.  That sounds miserable.  


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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11 minutes ago, mandalore said:

Yea so Pann can get a thousand emails about political alliegence and then have to decide if something is credible or not and what actions needed to be handled.  That sounds miserable.  

Why would pann get involved? Seems like the wannabe spy (or really clueless newb) is salty if they try to involve ACE.

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3 minutes ago, BarriaKarl said:

Why would pann get involved? Seems like the wannabe spy (or really clueless newb) is salty if they try to involve ACE.

O you meant an in game tracking system that removes a buff once a certain amount of in game reports?  That’s like two different systems they don’t have in, nor will any time soon, that’s also easily exploitable by somebody like Tark who has 20+ accounts.  

How do we fix it now? With what exists. 

Edited by mandalore

40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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18 minutes ago, mandalore said:

Okay okay so you all hate faction camping; how would you stop it? 

I'd have a good time killing a noob with my noob. If they have some big beefy bastard there camping, well I guess I need to bring one that can compete. I am OK with a player logging an account in somewhere just for intel, I am not cool with the guy getting intel for free. There should be a price, whether it's risk of dying/annoyance, or just time invested. 

In EvE, gatecampers were a common occurrence in lowsec for the the same reason, intel. Whether it was to watch chat (not as useful as the game aged), to inform people downstream of a potential mark, or even to kill them by alpha-striking them if they took too long to align to destination. The thing was though, there was always a risk involved for a guy camping a gate. 

As far as @excellz's proposed solution, I'd still rather be able to just kill them. I think removing the immunity from the gate entirely would be more logical. BUT I'm not a guy that's going to sit there and camp noobs at the gates, so it may not be a great suggestion. 

Edited by Samulus
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13 minutes ago, mandalore said:

It’s not just annoying there is no current way in the game to do that.  Game doesn’t even DC you for being afk afaik so I doubt the tech is even available.  

Who knows.  But that kind of tech is not hard to implement, that's just a few routines to check on activity when in a certain area.  

Not saying it's mission priority #1, just that it represents a possible way to do prevent faction spies from sitting on gates 24/7 :)

Edited by excellz
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17 minutes ago, mandalore said:

O you meant an in game tracking system that removes a buff once a certain amount of in game reports?  That’s like two different systems they don’t have in, nor will any time soon, that’s also easily exploitable by somebody like Tark who has 20+ accounts.  

I would like to think we will have enough pop that 20 people wont be able to make a difference.

But yeah, ingame tracker. Just make it so labelling someone a traitor wont happen willi-nilly. requering hundreds of people to tag someone a traitor would work. Maybe. No harm trying.

I mean, that would be pretty hardcore but hey, I thought that was exactly what you bastards wanted.

Edited by BarriaKarl

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4 minutes ago, Samulus said:

I'd have a good time killing a noob with my noob. If they have some big beefy bastard there camping, well I guess I need to bring one that can compete. I am OK with a player logging an account in somewhere just for intel, I am not cool with the guy getting intel for free. There should be a price, whether it's risk of dying/annoyance, or just time invested. 

In EvE, gatecampers were a common occurrence in lowsec for the the same reason, intel. Whether it was to watch chat (not as useful as the game aged), to inform people downstream of a potential mark, or even to kill them by alpha-striking them if they took too long to align to destination. The thing was though, there was always a risk involved for a guy camping a gate. 

As far as @excellz's proposed solution, I'd still rather be able to just kill them. I think removing the immunity from the gate entirely would be more logical. BUT I'm not a guy that's going to sit there and camp noobs at the gates, so it may not be a great suggestion. 

Set up counter spies.  Get the same thing going on for your team.  Find a guild that has enough players that they can play the same game, by the same rules so everyone knows when people move through any faction controlled gate. 

Heck, make it unnecessary by putting up toast messages on incoming portals, or having the gate ray into the sky flash/pulse like the tree of life whenever anyone comes through, so there simply is no way to travel through one undetected.

 

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1 minute ago, BarriaKarl said:

I would like to think we will have enough pop that 20 people wont be able to make a difference.

But yeah, ingame tracker. Just make it so labelling someone a traitor wont happen willi-nilly. requering hundreds of people to tag someone a traitor would work. Maybe. No harm trying.

I mean, that would be pretty hardcore but hey, I thought that was exactly what you bastards wanted.

1.  Calling me a bastard is a reportable offense and a personal attack.  I’m senesitive and you deserve to be banned.  

2.  As the duly elected representative of all dregs players I am obligated to point out that it’s not an issue that impacts us.  We don’t have forced alliances and if somebody is a spy we can just kick them and kill them.   


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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11 minutes ago, mandalore said:

1.  Calling me a bastard is a reportable offense and a personal attack.  I’m senesitive and you deserve to be banned.  

2.  As the duly elected representative of all dregs players I am obligated to point out that it’s not an issue that impacts us.  We don’t have forced alliances and if somebody is a spy we can just kick them and kill them.   

1. Meh.

2. So go away? This topic doesnt concern you yet you are still keen on disagreeing with it. Let us be and, who knows, maybe we will end up doing something productive like, dunno, making the game better?

 

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2 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Set up counter spies.  Get the same thing going on for your team.  Find a guild that has enough players that they can play the same game, by the same rules so everyone knows when people move through any faction controlled gate. 

Heck, make it unnecessary by putting up toast messages on incoming portals, or having the gate ray into the sky flash/pulse like the tree of life whenever anyone comes through, so there simply is no way to travel through one undetected.

 

But what if I don't need intelligence but rather a decent means of counterintelligence to perform the function I attempting to perform? If I want a small farming team to march into Zone A at an undisclosed location, us having knowledge of noobs entering on the other side of the map in Zone G isn't all that helpful to us. What would be helpful, though, would be to kill the lookout inside the gate with a toon I have bought and trained up before we march 4 Juicy Farmers past the dude watching for such, and at no cost of his own. 

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3 minutes ago, BarriaKarl said:

I would like to think we will have enough pop that 20 people wont be able to make a difference.

But yeah, ingame tracker. Just make it so labelling someone a traitor wont happen willi-nilly. requering hundreds of people to tag someone a traitor would work. Maybe. No harm trying.

I mean, that would be pretty hardcore but hey, I thought that was exactly what you bastards wanted.

Ha!

Given time I can think of dozens of ways around this, that would only be a headache for ACE.  Lets see off the top of my head.

  • Guild in faction A wants all the rewards because they are winning, so the entire guild, ALT's and all, "reports" the leader of guild B.  While ACE is trying to arbitrate, A takes the world in the confusion. and everyone on B is disgruntled off.
  • Someone starts a 'we hate player X' campaign not because of this behavior, but because custard him, why not. Then it gets worse and people start accusing random new players of being that players alts, and trying to get them banned through word of mouth, mob rule.  Again, ACE has to step in and arbitrate. 

ACE trying to algorithmically or personally trying to arbitrate and punish players is just a bad idea on so many levels.

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1 minute ago, Samulus said:

But what if I don't need intelligence but rather a decent means of counterintelligence to perform the function I attempting to perform? If I want a small farming team to march into Zone A at an undisclosed location, us having knowledge of noobs entering on the other side of the map in Zone G isn't all that helpful to us. What would be helpful, though, would be to kill the lookout inside the gate with a toon I have bought and trained up before we march 4 Juicy Farmers past the dude watching for such, and at no cost of his own. 

What you apparently want is the depth of dregs play, without the risk and complications associated with dregs play.

You want to run inside a faction, with all those advantages, BUT also have the same recourse dregs players will have, without the same advantages of protection.   The plain and simple truth is that having faction locked allegiance is a two edged sword.  You have the advantage of being able to physically trust your faction players to not be able to kill you, but no recourse if they informationally betray you.

In the dregs it's the opposite.  You have no guarantee of 100% trust they won't physically kill your vessel, but if they do, you have 100% ability to retaliate for it.

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17 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Ha!

Given time I can think of dozens of ways around this, that would only be a headache for ACE.  Lets see off the top of my head.

  • Guild in faction A wants all the rewards because they are winning, so the entire guild, ALT's and all, "reports" the leader of guild B.  While ACE is trying to arbitrate, A takes the world in the confusion. and everyone on B is disgruntled off.
  • Someone starts a 'we hate player X' campaign not because of this behavior, but because custard him, why not. Then it gets worse and people start accusing random new players of being that players alts, and trying to get them banned through word of mouth, mob rule.  Again, ACE has to step in and arbitrate. 

ACE trying to algorithmically or personally trying to arbitrate and punish players is just a bad idea on so many levels.

I dont doubt there is issues with it. That is something I thought up on the spot.

  • So guild A holds a sizeable part of the opposite faction? That is smart of them (or they are just filthy rich). I mean, plant spies and then making the opposite leader be treated like a traitor? That is some good storytelling material IMHO. Like, That would be epic. The result wouldnt be thaaat bad tho. The guild leader only lost the faction immunity. A minor incovenience it should be.
  • No ban tho. I just suggest the loss of faction immunity. Ban is indeed too much.
Edited by BarriaKarl

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9 minutes ago, mandalore said:

1.  Calling me a bastard is a reportable offense and a personal attack.  I’m senesitive and you deserve to be banned.  

Given your forum pic choice clearly not sensitive enough, it seems.

As for the topic, we could remove fog of war from the gates. Rather than try and deny the advantage, lean into it and give everyone the advantage.

That would make parking an alt at a gate meaningless, might drive activity out into the world, and not give that particular advantage to folks who have a bunch of money to throw around for this absurd reason.

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1 minute ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

What you apparently want is the depth of dregs play, without the risk and complications associated with dregs play.

You want to run inside a faction, with all those advantages, BUT also have the same recourse dregs players will have, without the same advantages of protection.   The plain and simple truth is that having faction locked allegiance is a two edged sword.  You have the advantage of being able to physically trust your faction players to not be able to kill you, but no recourse if they informationally betray you.

In the dregs it's the opposite.  You have no guarantee of 100% trust they won't physically kill your vessel, but if they do, you have 100% ability to retaliate for it.

I actually am looking forward to the Dregs campaigns for the reasons you stated... My preference will very likely not be faction-based campaigns. 

 All I am advocating is the ability to kill a guy that has put 2% effort into getting free information from the zone. I don't think anything anyone has said here proves that one should be able to camp a gate and get free information at 0 cost solely based on the fact that it is a RvRvR campaign. These two things are mutually exclusive, one is an entire campaign design concept, and the other is a rule they have setup to prevent griefing at temple gates. 

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11 minutes ago, Samulus said:

I actually am looking forward to the Dregs campaigns for the reasons you stated... My preference will very likely not be faction-based campaigns. 

 All I am advocating is the ability to kill a guy that has put 2% effort into getting free information from the zone. I don't think anything anyone has said here proves that one should be able to camp a gate and get free information at 0 cost solely based on the fact that it is a RvRvR campaign. These two things are mutually exclusive, one is an entire campaign design concept, and the other is a rule they have setup to prevent griefing at temple gates. 

As long as it applied to everyone, and was an impersonal mechanic, I would have no problem with it.  For example, if the gate area acted like the starvation effect of being close to a hunger shard in the new player zone, and fatal starvation was possible, then it would apply to all without all that "he said, she said" nonsense. 

But those types of mechanics are very very hard to design without negatively changing the very nature of factions, that you are safe from other players in your faction hurting you, and almost certainly a poor use for developer time because of the cat/mouse nature of the whole process.  Much better to just get the Dregs finished, (still planned before release), and let people use that option.  

I bet you won't see much of this type of spying in the faction campaigns once dregs open up anyway, simply because those dedicated enough to have multiple accounts, will be those dedicated enough to play them and keep away from the factions for the most part. 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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21 minutes ago, Tooltip said:

Given your forum pic choice clearly not sensitive enough, it seems.

 

Emperor Shōwa was a great man and the leader of my mothers people for 63 years.  Any issues you have with him aren't pertinent to CF and should be left alone imo. 

 

12 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

I bet you won't see much of this type of spying in the faction campaigns once dregs open up anyway, simply because those dedicated enough to have multiple accounts, will be those dedicated enough to play them and keep away from the factions for the most part. 

I won't be using my accounts till the dregs to keep them pristine and fingerprint-less until I need them.  I can't imagine anybody legitimately playing long term in factions, you won't actually own anything and to me that's the whole point of playing. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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17 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

As long as it applied to everyone, and was an impersonal mechanic, I would have no problem with it.  For example, if the gate area acted like the starvation effect of being close to a hunger shard in the new player zone, and fatal starvation was possible, then it would apply to all without all that "he said, she said" nonsense. 

But those types of mechanics are very very hard to design without negatively changing the very nature of factions, that you are safe from other players in your faction hurting you, and almost certainly a poor use for developer time because of the cat/mouse nature of the whole process.  Much better to just get the Dregs finished, (still planned before release), and let people use that option.  

I bet you won't see much of this type of spying in the faction campaigns once dregs open up anyway, simply because those dedicated enough to have multiple accounts, will be those dedicated enough to play them and keep away from the factions for the most part. 

The first part's actually not a bad idea, but you're right... Why add additional objectives to the list... 

I guess I will just wait for Dregs lol. 

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