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mandalore

Is in gaming spying an exploit?

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20 minutes ago, hamon said:

 

And If the faction points gained by spying on the enemy faction in CF are like the MMR points gained with wintrade on the LoL? Just admit that this is a cheating. Stop defending the indefensible. That's wintrading with alt char in enemy faction.

That’s not how league defines win trading. You’re trying to use a term that specially means one thing to define what you want it to mean. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

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20 minutes ago, hamon said:

 

And If the faction points gained by spying on the enemy faction in CF are like the MMR points gained with wintrade on the LoL? Just admit that this is a cheating. Stop defending the indefensible. That's wintrading with alt char in enemy faction.

That’s not how league defines win trading. You’re trying to use a term that specially means one thing to define what you want it to mean. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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6 minutes ago, mandalore said:

That’s not how league defines win trading. You’re trying to use a term that specially means one thing to define what you want it to mean. 

 

Just admit that you want to cheat in the game without being convicted of ban rules. Just admit it. From your previous posts i can see that you only care for your own fun and  0 fun for the other players. Just admit the truth and it hurts less. You goes on being naive and is giving feedback to the DEVs and another players admitting practices that could be banned in other PVP games. That's despicable.

Edited by hamon

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Just now, hamon said:

 

Just admit that you want to cheat in the game without being convicted of ban rules. Just admit it. From your previous posts i can see that you only care for your own fun. Damn the other players. Just admit the truth and it hurts less. He goes on being naive and is giving feedback to the DEVs admitting practices that could be banned in other PVP games. That's despicable.

So you went from ad hoc to ad hominem in a single post.  You said games, I asked for proof and when your proof doesn’t hold up you resort to personal attacks.  I’m not trying to get a warning arguing with when you wanna attack me.  Best of luck homie.  I’m out.  


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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2 minutes ago, mandalore said:

So you went from ad hoc to ad hominem in a single post.  You said games, I asked for proof and when your proof doesn’t hold up you resort to personal attacks.  I’m not trying to get a warning arguing with when you wanna attack me.  Best of luck homie.  I’m out.  

 

Just type in google "wintrading ban". 100000 results. You will have all the evidence you need and stop making yourself a victim.

Edited by hamon

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just remove the ban on enemies approaching a faction runegate.

As long as everyone gets 30 sec to a minute of invulnerability where they can go back through its not an issue.

Then my real spy account can kill your hang out in the immunity area where you cant be killed by anyone account.

 

You could also make zoning in a random placement in the zone to make tracking infiltration more difficult


www.lotd.org       pking and siege pvp since 1995

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1 hour ago, hamon said:

 

Just admit that you want to cheat in the game without being convicted of ban rules. Just admit it. From your previous posts i can see that you only care for your own fun and  0 fun for the other players. Just admit the truth and it hurts less. You goes on being naive and is giving feedback to the DEVs and another players admitting practices that could be banned in other PVP games. That's despicable.

You do realize that to "win trade" requires trading the mmr of one account to another. Your example is a false equivalency, and its hilarious how pathetic your train of logic is.  

Edited by Zatch

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10 hours ago, Zatch said:

You do realize that to "win trade" requires trading the mmr of one account to another. Your example is a false equivalency, and its hilarious how pathetic your train of logic is.  

 

Wintrading actually only requires that player create a char/account specifically to lose on purpose so that another char/player has wins more easily in a PVP game. That is, it is manipulating the result of a match to favor another enemy (which you actually favor for personal reasons or for money), going against the true rules of competition of the PVP game.

MMR is worth money and so it is sold in competitive games, but this is no a requirement to wintrading. MMR Is the most common ocorrence. Is WIN trading and not MMR trading. WIN!!!

Like I said this is wintrading because you do not have to fool anyone to be a spy infiltrated into the enemy faction. You just need to get into the faction and move your char near the gates and see arround. This is not smart at all, this is not true espionage with betrayal tactic. This is just plain cheating, by the way. There's nothing smart about it.

Edited by hamon

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I personally have no issue with real spies.  Ones that play a character on an opposing side to gather information, mislead, etc…  This IMHO is part of the game.

Having multiple accounts on opposing factions that are obvious spies, is pretty annoying.   Basically using them like a map hack.  Having them posted in a keeps or at gates is against the spirit of the game.

 

Which fort should we attack?  Let me check all my other characters.  Well they have x amount of people in this fort, y in this one, etc… 

Having the spy grief loot bodies/mobs is currently OK.  This one could be fixed or limited by having loot rules.

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19 hours ago, VaMei said:

EvE has some of the most epic stories of spying and double agency. Makes for great stories. Really sucks being a line grunt when your faction is betrayed and you loose everything.

I had a dude steal 3 billion isk worth of stuff in eve. we ended up talking him into giving half of it back, then he wardecced us to kill all of our citadels solo, then he finally deleted his character when that didn't work. good times.

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18 hours ago, hamon said:

I consider something bad from the point of view that needs another account (more money spent) to spy on the enemy with alt. Of course, that in a P2W game this is good, because players just to have more chance of winning spend more money (wallet warriors). I do not know exactly whether DEVs want to give a player a lead just because he spends more $$$.
I think a player who thinks that indirectly cheating using tactics based on using money to have multiple accounts is not good for the game. I'm sure the DEVs do not want a toxic game like wallet warriors wants (asiatic players like a p2w).

I both agree and disagree.

Needs another account is not equal to, one player has to buy another account.  Even if you somehow very magically restricted players to one account, it still would not cover the issue as guilds would simply account share or build information relay bot scripts that any member could use to keep themselves logged in and reporting while AFK. 

Enemy location spying we are seeing currently is not really "more chance of winning" anyway. 

ACE already provides a fair amount of locational intel in the map and toast messages.  Just open your map, and you can see forts/keeps burning when being contested, and they are planning on adding that to camps. I've myself used the flags flipping to track player groups from time to time. So identifying where the points are changing and players are moving from the posistion of "winning the campaign" will be available regardless.

The only thing that spies really tell you, is if a group of players have moved through a gate.  Not where in the island they are going (Islands are intended to get bigger as population goes up), or what they are up to, (harvesting, camp flipping, fort capturing, etc).

The only real purpose account spies like the ones we see now will have, it identifying solo players taking too much of a risk, and being kinda dumb about location information management.

To beat a spy, enter an adjacent Island you are NOT going to farm in from where they can see you, then move through the public gate (where other factions can kill the spy), on that island to where you actually want to farm.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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3 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

I both agree and disagree.

Needs another account is not equal to, one player has to buy another account.  Even if you somehow very magically restricted players to one account, it still would not cover the issue as guilds would simply account share or build information relay bot scripts that any member could use to keep themselves logged in and reporting while AFK. 

Enemy location spying we are seeing currently is not really "more chance of winning" anyway. 

ACE already provides a fair amount of locational intel in the map and toast messages.  Just open your map, and you can see forts/keeps burning when being contested, and they are planning on adding that to camps. I've myself used the flags flipping to track player groups from time to time. So identifying where the points are changing and players are moving from the posistion of "winning the campaign" will be available regardless.

The only thing that spies really tell you, is if a group of players have moved through a gate.  Not where in the island they are going (Islands are intended to get bigger as population goes up), or what they are up to, (harvesting, camp flipping, fort capturing, etc).

The only real purpose account spies like the ones we see now will have, it identifying solo players taking too much of a risk, and being kinda dumb about location information management.

To beat a spy, enter an adjacent Island you are NOT going to farm in from where they can see you, then move through the public gate (where other factions can kill the spy), on that island to where you actually want to farm.

 

 

I've yet to get a clear answer but I have to be careful with what I post here, Vk sent his apprentice to this post and I have to be careful how I approach the dark side.   I don't see parking bots in faction as cheating, exploiting, win trading or game breaking but what do I know about any of those.  It's definitely underhanded and cheap, I'll 100% admit that but underhanded and cheap does not an exploit make.  The funny thing to me is being accused of doing it when I 100% am too lazy to track the movements of solo farmers.  What am I gona do?  Run out and 1v1 them with my healing cleric?  Grrrrr, I'm gona auto attack you to death! 

 

Edited by mandalore

40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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I don't think you can get rid of spying. Even if it was considered a bannable offense, people would find ways around it. They'd be more clever naming their accounts. They'd find better hiding spots for spies. They'd arrange for their spies to move around semi-realistically. They'd use a VPN for their spy to hide the IP from the devs. They'd get a friend to be a spy. And so on.

 

Maybe it would be better to think about the spying as it is, as a mechanic which presently doesn't have good counters, and consider what might be done about that? At least make them work a bit more for the spy info?

 

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2 hours ago, Ardrea said:

I don't think you can get rid of spying. Even if it was considered a bannable offense, people would find ways around it. They'd be more clever naming their accounts. They'd find better hiding spots for spies. They'd arrange for their spies to move around semi-realistically. They'd use a VPN for their spy to hide the IP from the devs. They'd get a friend to be a spy. And so on.

 

Maybe it would be better to think about the spying as it is, as a mechanic which presently doesn't have good counters, and consider what might be done about that? At least make them work a bit more for the spy info?

 

What if there was a +stealth bubble around the gates that extended out far enough that you would need 3-4 characters on each one to see all the way around it? Let them sit right on the gates all they want, they would never see anyone else unless they went farther out. I'm sure it would have issues of it's own but if the main purpose of gate camping is to see when people are there, wouldn't the easiest fix be to stop that directly? 

EVE Online has been mentioned a couple of times and this was part of the solution that CCP came up with to address the matter, a built in stealth after you jumped from one gate to another. (not to mention gate guns and faction police/concord)

Edited by Kalus_Konkwest

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18 hours ago, Ardrea said:

I don't think you can get rid of spying.

Short of denying in game and meta-game information to your legitimate allies/faction/guild, you can't. Any information you deny the spy will hurt an active team mate in the same way. Anything you build as a hurdle, a player that wants to spy will view as a challenge to overcome. If they need to stop being a passive observer and become an active player within the opposing team to achieve their goals, that is what will happen. Do you think it hasn't already?

I may not care for meta-game espionage, but since it can't be stopped, it's specifically sanctioned in the rules of conduct, and more than a few players view it as an integral part of a throne war (and I suspect devs too), I really think it's a moot point.

Quote

In-Game Rules of Conduct

Crowfall is a game centered on immersive group and faction-based PvP conflict. Therefore, it is to be expected that players will be entrenched in a hard-hitting, ferociously competitive in-game experience. In the midst of winning and losing, emotions can and will run high.

It is also to be expected that certain other aspects of conflict, including espionage and betrayal, will feature heavily in the tactics employed by players. So long as such activities are undertaken within the parameters set forth by the Terms of Service and Rules of Conduct—meaning that no exploits or other abuses of Art+Craft's rules and policies occur—it is considered appropriate play.

Specifically, the elements below are allowed in-game so long as the context is within the in-game conflict: ridicule, mock, taunt, stalk, threaten, harass, betray, scam, intimidate or abuse.

 

Edited by VaMei

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1 hour ago, VaMei said:
  Quote

In-Game Rules of Conduct

Crowfall is a game centered on immersive group and faction-based PvP conflict. Therefore, it is to be expected that players will be entrenched in a hard-hitting, ferociously competitive in-game experience. In the midst of winning and losing, emotions can and will run high.

It is also to be expected that certain other aspects of conflict, including espionage and betrayal, will feature heavily in the tactics employed by players. So long as such activities are undertaken within the parameters set forth by the Terms of Service and Rules of Conduct—meaning that no exploits or other abuses of Art+Craft's rules and policies occur—it is considered appropriate play.

Specifically, the elements below are allowed in-game so long as the context is within the in-game conflict: ridicule, mock, taunt, stalk, threaten, harass, betray, scam, intimidate or abuse.

Every time I see this it makes me happy.  The devs know their player base well to have the foresight to know we are going to be the poorly made socksty people we want to be to each other and to not try to punish us for it.  I'm sure there will be cases the devs have to get involved and tell people to back off but that won't be the norm. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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In game spying is and will be an issue no matter what the devs decide on it.

However, I wanna point out that in case it is allowed the game will rotate around alt accounts and naked spies in stealth everywhere. Campaigns will be played with insane amount of these scouts to gain an advantage, and it doesn't matter if its dregs or faction based.

Same happened in Albion, tho at least there it was a bannable offense. (permanent ban if caught).

Alt account naked spying just hurts gameplay in full loot pvp games a lot. It's wonderful and becomes mandatory to compete if allowed. We will see these forums warriors that defend the crap system first in line to abuse the system. If it's allowed you can just go ahead and allow macros and botting as well. From which macros is already happening in crowfall and botting most likely as well.

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25 minutes ago, Nervontuxis said:

it doesn't matter if its dregs or faction based.

It does matter. You can kill the spies in the dregs. In a faction campaign you can't kill spies on your own faction.


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8 minutes ago, Jah said:

It does matter. You can kill the spies in the dregs. In a faction campaign you can't kill spies on your own faction.

We don’t know that for certain.  What if the rune gates offer protection so they can’t be camped again?  Not trying to jump sides on the issue but we don’t know that yet.  

 

P.S. I went to make that same post but deleted it after I poked holes in it myself


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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