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Capture Points testing begins - Official discussion thread

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First There

Secondly, why does game purity matter when its testing to see if the mechanics even work? 

Edited by mandalore
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40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

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Well, no passive reset BUT important character change is really discouraging for people.

When some skill where useless you dont train them. Now we are commited into thing that we where playing just because we dont had choice.

 

example : confessor

Edited by Aedius

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I want to make it clear that we WILL have “no import” sanctioned campaigns in the future as this is still the best way to ensure that all players start on a level playing field.

Sorry. But this isn't gonna happen. Those in the know and with guilds are going to push ahead much faster today than those without it. We know how to streamline and get where we need. But if every month we have to restart with nothing, I'm confident that is a phase of testing I will sit out. Starting from scratch once a month might as well be a wipe once a month. 

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3 minutes ago, Navystylz said:

Sorry. But this isn't gonna happen. Those in the know and with guilds are going to push ahead much faster today than those without it. We know how to streamline and get where we need. But if every month we have to restart with nothing, I'm confident that is a phase of testing I will sit out. Starting from scratch once a month might as well be a wipe once a month. 

He's not wrong @jtoddcoleman


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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I want to make it clear that we WILL have “no import” sanctioned campaigns in the future as this is still the best way to ensure that all players start on a level playing field.

 

20 minutes ago, Navystylz said:

Sorry. But this isn't gonna happen. Those in the know and with guilds are going to push ahead much faster today than those without it. We know how to streamline and get where we need. But if every month we have to restart with nothing, I'm confident that is a phase of testing I will sit out. Starting from scratch once a month might as well be a wipe once a month. 

Your assuming that is the only campaign running, and that this will happen with current, low population.

I see no reason why this will be the case, or that a wipe will be required for these "sanctioned" versions of campaigns.  I can totally see a "white vessel only" with zero import sanctioned campaign for new players to flounce around in feeling all "equal", while the vets have a parallel, "real", "sanctioned campaign" without those restrictions. They could even restrict to "accounts younger than 30 days" or even accounts that have never won a campaign, to keep passive training imbalances to a minimum as well.

I could also see there being singleton rewards that don't accumulate to encourage players to move up.  For example a "white sanctioned campaign winner" badge/appearance emblem, that each account only has one of at the crow level, so that once you have won one of these, there is no real interest to do it again.

Serious guilds would avoid these, except for maybe recruiters and those new to the game within the guild that have not yet earned the badge.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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17 minutes ago, Navystylz said:

Sorry. But this isn't gonna happen. Those in the know and with guilds are going to push ahead much faster today than those without it. We know how to streamline and get where we need. But if every month we have to restart with nothing, I'm confident that is a phase of testing I will sit out. Starting from scratch once a month might as well be a wipe once a month. 

If that happens im pretty sure you will get a lot of players who will sit out until you remove that, I for one will say screw that!

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6 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

 

Your assuming that is the only campaign running, and that this will happen with current, low population.

I see no reason why this will be the case, or that a wipe will be required for these "sanctioned" versions of campaigns.  I can totally see a "white vessel only" with zero import sanctioned campaign for new players to flounce around in feeling all "equal", while the vets have a parallel, "real", "sanctioned campaign" without those restrictions. They could even restrict to "accounts younger than 30 days" or even accounts that have never won a campaign, to keep passive training imbalances to a minimum as well.

I could also see there being singleton rewards that don't accumulate to encourage players to move up.  For example a "white sanctioned campaign winner" badge/appearance emblem, that each account only has one of at the crow level, so that once you have won one of these, there is no real interest to do it again.

Serious guilds would avoid these, except for maybe recruiters and those new to the game within the guild that have not yet earned the badge.

1. If they run multiple campaigns, now on LIVE test, with the low numbers we have would be insanely stupid. But sure they can. I bet most people will stay in the one that their stuff isn't being reset once a month.

2. Isn't "sanctioned campaign" a test buzzword? When game is LIVE there will be the bands that determine end rewards. I see no reason why all of a sudden they are calling some of those sanctioned or not. It wouldn't need be stated otherwise. Because it's always been known that some crazy rulesets will have no imports. Which, again, is something I won't play because why play for stuff you'll never get to do anything with in the game that matters?

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14 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

 

Your assuming that is the only campaign running, and that this will happen with current, low population.

I see no reason why this will be the case, or that a wipe will be required for these "sanctioned" versions of campaigns.  I can totally see a "white vessel only" with zero import sanctioned campaign for new players to flounce around in feeling all "equal", while the vets have a parallel, "real", "sanctioned campaign" without those restrictions. They could even restrict to "accounts younger than 30 days" or even accounts that have never won a campaign, to keep passive training imbalances to a minimum as well.

I could also see there being singleton rewards that don't accumulate to encourage players to move up.  For example a "white sanctioned campaign winner" badge/appearance emblem, that each account only has one of at the crow level, so that once you have won one of these, there is no real interest to do it again.

Serious guilds would avoid these, except for maybe recruiters and those new to the game within the guild that have not yet earned the badge.

During pre-alpha, alpha and beta?   I feel like you and navy are talking about two different time periods in CF's future. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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15 minutes ago, mandalore said:

During pre-alpha, alpha and beta?   I feel like you and navy are talking about two different time periods in CF's future. 

We quite possibly are. Todds statement of "in the future" does not specifically describe any particular phase of development, so any assumption, one way or the other, are prone to be wrong or even changed.

What I expect, is ACE will do what they think is going to help them the most at any given point in testing.  Right now, they appear to be catering as much as possible to the players who have been helping them for years and are tired of wipes, rather than the lookie loo's that may or may not be bothered by feeling "behind".

Given Todds statements about the "new user experience" I frequently quote about it being the last thing they work on, I expect at the earliest to see this focus shift to begin on the opening beta, but again I could be wrong.

Point being, I don't see a single thing in the statement that even implies that a wipe will be done just to placate these people rather than simply coinciding it with another wipe required by some other development necessity. 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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15 minutes ago, Navystylz said:

1. If they run multiple campaigns, now on LIVE test, with the low numbers we have would be insanely stupid. But sure they can. I bet most people will stay in the one that their stuff isn't being reset once a month.

2. Isn't "sanctioned campaign" a test buzzword? When game is LIVE there will be the bands that determine end rewards. I see no reason why all of a sudden they are calling some of those sanctioned or not. It wouldn't need be stated otherwise. Because it's always been known that some crazy rulesets will have no imports. Which, again, is something I won't play because why play for stuff you'll never get to do anything with in the game that matters?

I don't think so. 

I think when things go to live, there will be both categories of campaigns, if for no other reason that to draw the big guilds to them over other campaigns that are happening at the same time. 

We may even see player/guild sponsored campaigns started up with parameters that specific guilds want to try out, that certainly would not fall under the "sanctioned" category, as well as new configurations ACE wants to try, but is not exactly confident about.

 

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Before I bought in, my understanding of importing/exporting was that it was only something you got to do at the beginning (whenever you make a character) and end of a campaign. 

E.g., I get 10 imports, I'm rolling a Myrm with a purple minotaur vessel (1 import down), and then armor/weapons and jewelry (7/8 down) and then a stack of 100 blue iron to give me a little edge in the market (1) and whatever else I please.

When the campaign ends, I can take whatever arbitrary amount ACE states I can, but it doesn't necessarily need to be set at the same value import does. 

Am I the only one that thought this? Better yet, does it not seem to anyone else that a majority of the rules governing importing/exporting right now aren't going to be the way it actually works when the game goes live?

Edit: I meant to add that campaigns where the import/export is essentially locked is just as possible of a way for them to simply practice the "spirit bank lock" functionality for the future. Am I crazy?

Edited by Samulus

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3 minutes ago, Samulus said:

Edit: I meant to add that campaigns where the import/export is essentially locked is just as possible of a way for them to simply practice the "spirit bank lock" functionality for the future. Am I crazy?

I think they've talked about the Spirit Bank mechanism as a whole to be a testing system, which would be replaces later with something better. Can someone else who knows better correct me or expound a bit?

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3 minutes ago, Samulus said:

Before I bought in, my understanding of importing/exporting was that it was only something you got to do at the beginning (whenever you make a character) and end of a campaign. 

E.g., I get 10 imports, I'm rolling a Myrm with a purple minotaur vessel (1 import down), and then armor/weapons and jewelry (7/8 down) and then a stack of 100 blue iron to give me a little edge in the market (1) and whatever else I please.

When the campaign ends, I can take whatever arbitrary amount ACE states I can, but it doesn't necessarily need to be set at the same value import does. 

Am I the only one that thought this? Better yet, does it not seem to anyone else that a majority of the rules governing importing/exporting right now aren't going to be the way it actually works when the game goes live?

From a couple of the recent live streams they have been talking about working on the embargo system, and what you are describing above is a fair assessment of at least ONE type of campaign they will offer.

I expect some campaigns will have rules like the above, and others will make more liberal use of the spirit banks.  That might be one of the key differences between sanctioned and unsanctioned campaigns.  The real gate to Uncle Bob is on imports, not exports, so I would expect a wide variety of possible options/styles to emerge. 

Some people and guilds like to play with all the toys thinking they may be Uncle Bob, and others will prefer a more clean type of campaign.

With the systems they are building, both will be possible.

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The whole rewards system is going to be hard to work out. The overall objective, I think, is to find a way to reward us with things we find valuable enough to motivate us to win, but not which can provide a big advantage in subsequent campaigns.

Going back to the "Uncle Bob playing Risk" example; if you give him keep the armies he had when the last game finished into the next one, of course that's a serious problem. If you give him a handful, maybe that's not so serious, but other players would still complain. But if you give him a fancy hat prize to wear in the next game, maybe everyone's okay with that.

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1 minute ago, Ardrea said:

The whole rewards system is going to be hard to work out. The overall objective, I think, is to find a way to reward us with things we find valuable enough to motivate us to win, but not which can provide a big advantage in subsequent campaigns.

Going back to the "Uncle Bob playing Risk" example; if you give him keep the armies he had when the last game finished into the next one, of course that's a serious problem. If you give him a handful, maybe that's not so serious, but other players would still complain. But if you give him a fancy hat prize to wear in the next game, maybe everyone's okay with that.

I agree for the most part, other than the fact that (again, I may be wrong on this but it has been my impression for years now) the EK's are going to have to stay afloat on materials obtained from campaigns because, as has been stated, apparently there is a subset of people that are being catered to that don't ever want to take part in a campaign and will just stay in EK's maintime. Whether those people exist or not is something I have no idea about... 

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13 minutes ago, Ardrea said:

The whole rewards system is going to be hard to work out. The overall objective, I think, is to find a way to reward us with things we find valuable enough to motivate us to win, but not which can provide a big advantage in subsequent campaigns.

Going back to the "Uncle Bob playing Risk" example; if you give him keep the armies he had when the last game finished into the next one, of course that's a serious problem. If you give him a handful, maybe that's not so serious, but other players would still complain. But if you give him a fancy hat prize to wear in the next game, maybe everyone's okay with that.

If you take (some) poker tournaments as an example, players get to keep earnings between tables (campaigns) as they move to the final elimination table. So there is some transfer of success, and a reasonable limitation on just how much you can pull ahead.

There is no absolute correct answer here.  I mean look at one of the examples in the FAQ, of single death elimination worlds.

Quote

Our intention is to make this a community-driven process. We’ll take the best ideas we find, wherever they come from, and give them a shot.

If an idea gains enough traction and fits within the architecture, we’ll try it.

You want to try a world without magic? Cool.
You want to try a world where we introduce cannons as a siege weapon? Sounds interesting.
You want to try a world where each character only has one life – meaning that if you die once, you are permanently banned from the World? Sure, let’s do it.

That’s the cool thing about this development approach: we’re turning our community into a massive, game-designing hivemind.

Not much point to an embargo for those, which would be more like a battle royal, and could be much more fun if players can bring in all their toys.

EDIT

Just noticed the last point in that FAQ has changed recently, that sounds way more like a modification on the Spirit bank rules than "just" the original end of the world embargo system.

Quote

HOW ARE REWARDS DETERMINED AT THE CONCLUSION OF A CAMPAIGN?

Players can place items, resources and materials into export – basically, this is a way of “uploading” items to your Spirit Bank inside a Campaign. Each world has a limit on imports and exports, and each item or stack of items counts as one. Once you have exported the item, it will appear in your Spirit Bank and may be transferred into your EK or even another Campaign.

Import/export amounts can be adjusted on the fly as the Campaign is going. We may also trigger additional imports and exports based on game actions, as well, such as successfully capturing a fort or defending a castle in a siege.

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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errrr kinda not a fan of these mechanic simply cause it promotes back capping points that are undefended over point you have to fight for. Reason why it promotes this is points that are way on the other side of the map are worth more points compared to places that are heavily contested and recapping point just taken arnt worth anything so there no reason to defend ur area just run past the fighting and afk capture there points and come back to yours later. The whole system promotes avoiding conflict to maximise point gain......

That being said the system does work realy well with keeps so you got that going for you since u cant flip it uncontested like other points due to seige windows and they build up points so forts that have been held the entire time is worth more than one thats been flipped so this means people are more likely to assult the keep that is worth the most rather and flip the weaker sides one that they lost earlier.

I think this system would work amazingly if there was a territory system where u cant back cap, This means points build up score over time and promotes pushing into territory to capture those juicy points deepers in. It will also be more rewarding the deeper you push in due to those point being uncapturable for such a long time due to territory system blocking back caps. It also promotes PvP since both side will be wanting to push so there be constant conflict with both sides trying to push one back for the juicy points it also allows one faction to defend forts due to there being a warning system as the territory gets pushed back allows people to build a defence to actualy defend a fort and not just flip it uncontested.


Veeshan Midst of UXA

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9 minutes ago, veeshan said:

I think this system would work amazingly if there was a territory system where u cant back cap, This means points build up score over time and promotes pushing into territory to capture those juicy points deepers in. It will also be more rewarding the deeper you push in due to those point being uncapturable for such a long time due to territory system blocking back caps. It also promotes PvP since both side will be wanting to push so there be constant conflict with both sides trying to push one back for the juicy points it also allows one faction to defend forts due to there being a warning system as the territory gets pushed back allows people to build a defence to actualy defend a fort and not just flip it uncontested.

I agree on territory system. In regards to isolated campfires/towers, I propose having a decay timer that would auto-flip objectives behind territory lines after a short period. This period of time could be modified by the number of objectives captured in that area. An isolated flip would not be a concern but if a group of objectives behind lines got flipped this would require attention. 

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2 minutes ago, mystafyi said:

I agree on territory system. In regards to isolated campfires/towers, I propose having a decay timer that would auto-flip objectives behind territory lines after a short period. This period of time could be modified by the number of objectives captured in that area. An isolated flip would not be a concern but if a group of objectives behind lines got flipped this would require attention. 

it definetly needs something, cause rewarding people to avoid pvp via back capping for extra points kinda sucks also an annoyance for the faction being back capped cause there realy nothing they can do you can spend all day chasing them down to stop them capping but they just leave and go another point or if u kill them they come back and start again so u cant realy do anything but waste ur time chasing a ghost -,-

Also on another topic death shrounds going away automaticly heal you to full hp is rather bad aswell currently its soooooooo much quicker to get back into fights now, relog come back full and continue fighting. normal i use to loot bandages from graves so it slowed them down cause even if they got rid of death shroud u still had to heal in some way now it relog in 20 seconds and ur back in the fight in as little as a minute depending on ur spawn location. decent size fights are gonna come down to who has the closest re spawn point.
Deathshroud needs be removed on log out to actualy stop people geting back into fights so quickly sometimes it better to die and run back rather than getting a healer to spend time healing u instead of people who need it more lol


Veeshan Midst of UXA

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