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ferorious

The potential of this game saving the MMO genre

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3 minutes ago, Cosian said:

OP is Original Poster .. thats you!  I would not classify this game as sandbox MMO.  I would define the core principles of the game as campaign style - team centric - objective based PvP.  Now certainly there are the games supporting peripheral systems ... such as the Eternal Kingdom.  Admittedly the function of the EK and integration with the campaigns still seems to be a bit in flux.  However, what you noted in your hidden content is in there.  You could, with the permission of the EK owner setup a vendor in a Kingdom.  

Yea I admit I generalize a bit the definition because otherwise you also need to mention Realm vs Realm and so on. An I know that what i've written in the hidden comment is somewhat already implementet but 1. its not a fully developt content and 2. it was only an example for showing that the things I mentioned weren't so far from the principles of this game

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21 minutes ago, Cosian said:

Dude ... when 50000 Kickstarter backups showed up there was no Hunger Dome or even talk about that to my knowledge.  Hunger Dome came about simply to test larger scale PvP.  I get it ... you liked it and it became your definition of what the game was going to be.

There in 2015 they said that hunger was something to be feared and that this would force Crows to kill themselves to fight for resources in slowly devoured worlds. Then you go to 2019 and have capture points as the main element of the game to win... The OP is creating an idea of who should win is who has more wealth? I'm just saying that old  Hunger Dome concept was much closer to the title of the game CROW FALL.

 

Yes, I think the hunger dome should come back. Ashes of creation is doing something very good by creating the gameplay mode to test siege and PVP mechanics in an absurdly effective way while CF is launching patches that can not solve uncle bob's problem.

Edited by hamon

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35 minutes ago, Cosian said:

This may have been your interpretation or your personal original idea for the game, but as an original backer of the game, the campaigns represent what I envisioned.  I certainly did not get the impression that the campaign mode would the next Battle Royale  game you continue to seek.

The game is still close enough to SB to hold my interest too.  I have my doubts about some of the systems but overall I'm still very much a fanboi. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

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19 minutes ago, hamon said:

There in 2015 they said that hunger was something to be feared and that this would force Crows to kill themselves to fight for resources in slowly devoured worlds. Then you go to 2019 and have capture points as the main element of the game to win... The OP is creating an idea of who should win is who has more wealth? I'm just saying that old  Hunger Dome concept was much closer to the title of the game CROW FALL.

 

Yes, I think the hunger dome should come back. Ashes of creation is doing something very good by creating the gameplay mode to test siege and PVP mechanics in an absurdly effective way while CF is launching patches that can not solve uncle bob's problem.

I didn't mention any endgame content or how a player shoul win, the only thing I mentioned was some ieas for game content because, currently the only things that are updated are bug fixes and not content updates. I said that what players expect in a prealpha is not that the game works fluently or is completed but at least that there is some content to test or some intresting game mechanics. Of course I somwhat disgressed from the original plan, but from the things I heard from you the developers made that themselves.

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2 hours ago, ferorious said:

I didn't mention any endgame content or how a player shoul win, the only thing I mentioned was some ieas for game content because, currently the only things that are updated are bug fixes and not content updates. I said that what players expect in a prealpha is not that the game works fluently or is completed but at least that there is some content to test or some intresting game mechanics. Of course I somwhat disgressed from the original plan, but from the things I heard from you the developers made that themselves.

There is content to test and interesting mechanics if you so choose to see them that way. They have content updates/milestones every so often and bug updates in between. Normally players don't have access to "pre-alpha" or any such early version of a game, especially MMOs. This is a new development model for MMOs so players coming in expecting more or something similar to a early access/beta for other games will be disappointed.

Some of your suggestions sound more like what might be found in Ashes of Creation eventually. You should check it out if you haven't. I backed it during the kickstarter, but not really interested in the focus on PVE.

I believe since your account was made they've added the Talent system with Promo Classes, began the first Campaigns with seasons, day/night, siege, capture point system update, multiple continents linked, etc. Basically made a playable game loop in a rough draft version of the game. For those of us that have been around for years, there has been quite a bit more. Being around for ~3 months and expecting for content/update to be dropping out of the sky daily or whatever isn't realistic.

This game isn't going to save the MMO genre. It doesn't need to be saved. There are tons of great MMOs that people play. If you choose to dislike them, that's on you. Crowfall will not be a huge mass appealing game. It has potential to be popular in it's own corner of the market, but it won't greatly appeal to those that like traditional MMOs nor will it draw people away from Fortnite, Overwatch, League and other highly popular games. 

Edited by APE

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1 hour ago, APE said:

There is content to test and interesting mechanics if you so choose to see them that way. They have content updates/milestones every so often and bug updates in between. Normally players don't have access to "pre-alpha" or any such early version of a game, especially MMOs. This is a new development model for MMOs so players coming in expecting more or something similar to a early access/beta for other games will be disappointed.

Some of your suggestions sound more like what might be found in Ashes of Creation eventually. You should check it out if you haven't. I backed it during the kickstarter, but not really interested in the focus on PVE.

I believe since your account was made they've added the Talent system with Promo Classes, began the first Campaigns with seasons, day/night, siege, capture point system update, multiple continents linked, etc. Basically made a playable game loop in a rough draft version of the game. For those of us that have been around for years, there has been quite a bit more. Being around for ~3 months and expecting for content/update to be dropping out of the sky daily or whatever isn't realistic.

This game isn't going to save the MMO genre. It doesn't need to be saved. There are tons of great MMOs that people play. If you choose to dislike them, that's on you. Crowfall will not be a huge mass appealing game. It has potential to be popular in it's own corner of the market, but it won't greatly appeal to those that like traditional MMOs nor will it draw people away from Fortnite, Overwatch, League and other highly popular games. 

I already checked AoC but its more like the other casual mmorpgs even if it has some interesting mechanics like the nodes that can grow into full citys but its far away from what i've said.

So yes I may don`t own the game as long as others and I don't expect any updates "out of the sky" like you said, and especially because I'm acquaintance with the early acces games, I don't expect a fully developted game (thats why I made suggestions) or a bugfree perfect finished game. But also because of the experience that I have with early access games I can say that this game has some seriours problems:

  1.  It is undeniable that the DEVs have currently problems to think of what the game should look like, especially the discussion with hamon made that even more clear. Apparently they changed from some survival like game to the Eternal empire system, than they suddenly said that there are some factions you need to join. I think the signs are pretty clearly they themselves don`t even know how the game mechanics should look like or how they should work.
  2. Ok i've playd the game for "only" around 3 months but so what? When the kickstarter campaign ended on March 26 on 2015 they collected 1,766,205 USD on June 20 of the same year they had already 7,210,680 USD. They planned to sponsor the project with only 800,000 USD (from kickstarter) so they had about 9 times the planned funds that means they could`ve made this game 9 times in other words you expect that with 6,410,680 USD more than planned that it goes 9 times faster or at least 4 times faster if you plan some unexpected problems.  In summary after 4 years and 9 times more financial support than planned, you can at least expect that the game is in the Alpha and not PreAlpha and that the DEVs know how the game should work and how the final game should look.

So for the last point you mentioned the MMORPG genre needs to be saved, you can read that on several forums or news sites (even youtube), thousends of players have this though. There are a lot of MMORPGs thats not even a question but let me explain why with an example out of 10 new MMORPGs 5 have new ideas or are sommething new out of this 5, 2 are avaiable only for korean and the other 3 only wants to milk the cow called customer and so its basically unplayable. And that are only some reasons there are a lot more of reson because the genre has some serious problems (if you want more information just google it there are enough discussions ;D). Of course this game should aim for huge masses or at least, middle class masses because 1.otherwise how could you call your game a MassiveMultiplayerOnline game 2.how do you want to make a realm vs realm battle? with 10vs10 you can`t call that a realm battle. So I don`t know why you mentioned Fortnite, Overwatch and the other games because they have other commuitys and are completely different genres

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4 minutes ago, ferorious said:

It is undeniable that the DEVs have currently problems to think of what the game should look like, especially the discussion with hamon made that even more clear. Apparently they changed from some survival like game to the Eternal empire system, than they suddenly said that there are some factions you need to join. I think the signs are pretty clearly they themselves don`t even know how the game mechanics should look like or how they should work.

Hamon doesn't know what he is talking about. The game was always going to be a "throne war" mmorpg. The "Hunger Dome" game mode was used for early combat testing, and that is it. That was never the game they pitched to make. They haven't changed course.


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35 minutes ago, Jah said:

Hamon doesn't know what he is talking about. The game was always going to be a "throne war" mmorpg. The "Hunger Dome" game mode was used for early combat testing, and that is it. That was never the game they pitched to make. They haven't changed course.

I am in favor of a Hunger Dome for PVP gameplay permanent tests like Ashes of Creation made and it is making very good progress despite having made a lot less money than the CF kickstater and having started the project afterwards.

And where did I say that this game is not a game of thrones MMORPG? You are an idiot? I'm talking about the original theme being Hunger devouring worlds and the Crows trying to save what was possible and that would create war between them (game of thrones).  This was so important that the concept of crows and world battles is about Hunger. Now you look at the link to what is crowfall and the Hunger is not even mentioned. Ridiculous.

 

Instead of fighting for our own lives against an mortal enemy of life we gain only faction points as the main reason we kill ourselves in the game.

Edited by hamon

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43 minutes ago, Jah said:

Hamon doesn't know what he is talking about. The game was always going to be a "throne war" mmorpg. The "Hunger Dome" game mode was used for early combat testing, and that is it. That was never the game they pitched to make. They haven't changed course.

So ok then let cast the hunger dome thing away for a moment, the DEVs definitly have some kind of ideas and they already stated them in videos and other announcments like the hunger thing that we mentioned. Like showed in the commend above:

Spoiler
  1. Ok i've playd the game for "only" around 3 months but so what? When the kickstarter campaign ended on March 26 on 2015 they collected 1,766,205 USD on June 20 of the same year they had already 7,210,680 USD. They planned to sponsor the project with only 800,000 USD (from kickstarter) so they had about 9 times the planned funds that means they could`ve made this game 9 times in other words you expect that with 6,410,680 USD more than planned that it goes 9 times faster or at least 4 times faster if you plan some unexpected problems.  In summary after 4 years and 9 times more financial support than planned, you can at least expect that the game is in the Alpha and not PreAlpha and that the DEVs know how the game should work and how the final game should look.

They have the founds and they had the time so why didn't they make all the things they've statet? Simple because they don't know how they should implement all the things they have said and promised.

Edited by ferorious

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7 minutes ago, ferorious said:

They planned to sponsor the project with only 800,000 USD (from kickstarter) so they had about 9 times the planned funds that means they could`ve made this game 9 times

They stated clearly on their Kickstarter that they could not make the game with 800k. Funding from the Kickstarter was never going to be enough to make the game. The notion that they could have "made this game 9 times" is totally ridiculous.

Quote

 

How can you build an MMO for $800k?

The short answer is: you can’t. At least, not a game with the scope of Crowfall. Fortunately, that isn’t our plan.

 

 


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24 minutes ago, Jah said:

 

They stated clearly on their Kickstarter that they could not make the game with 800k. Funding from the Kickstarter was never going to be enough to make the game. The notion that they could have "made this game 9 times" is totally ridiculous.

 

Of course you couldn't but do you think the number 800k came from nothing? If so i'm really sorry but then I MUST say as someone who studied economy that this game will go bankrupt. You may also have noticed that I said following thing:
 

Quote

at least 4 times faster if you plan some unexpected problems.

Also I never said that the 6,410,680 USD, that were more than planned would be enough for financing this game, you are putting words in my mouth, what I said was that with such a big of an amount of time and money, that the IDEA/Game mechanics/goal of the game should at least be clear and you could at least expect the status of Alpha and not preAlpha.
In the link what you have sended they also clearly stated what i've mentioned and feared: The developers don't know what the game should look like themselves:

Quote

We are limiting our scope of Crowfall in two major ways: first, we’re starting with the core module of the game, not the entire vision of the game ...

 

Edited by ferorious

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1 hour ago, hamon said:

I am in favor of a Hunger Dome for PVP gameplay permanent tests like Ashes of Creation made and it is making very good progress despite having made a lot less money than the CF kickstater and having started the project afterwards.

And where did I say that this game is not a game of thrones MMORPG? You are an idiot? I'm talking about the original theme being Hunger devouring worlds and the Crows trying to save what was possible and that would create war between them (game of thrones).  This was so important that the concept of crows and world battles is about Hunger. Now you look at the link to what is crowfall and the Hunger is not even mentioned. Ridiculous.

 

Instead of fighting for our own lives against an mortal enemy of life we gain only faction points as the main reason we kill ourselves in the game.

You do realize this is to give context to the seasons mechanic, and maps changing every campaign right? 

5 minutes ago, ferorious said:

Of course you couldn't but do you think the number 800k came from nothing? If so i'm really sorry but then I MUST say as someone who studied economy that this game will go bankrupt. You may also have noticed that I said following thing:
 

Also I never said that the 6,410,680 USD, that were more than planned would be enough for financing this game, you are putting words in my mouth, what I said was that with such a big of an amount of time and money, that the IDEA/Game mechanics/goal of the game should at least be clear and you could at least expect the status of Alpha and not preAlpha.
In the link what you have sended they also clearly stated what i've mentioned and feared: The developers don't know what the game should look like themselves:

 

I think the idea for the game is pretty clear: territory control with maps changing to stop stagnation. The Eternal Kingdoms are for showing off wins, and for players to have a permanent housing system.

 
Edited by Zatch

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1 hour ago, ferorious said:
  1.  It is undeniable that the DEVs have currently problems to think of what the game should look like, especially the discussion with hamon made that even more clear. Apparently they changed from some survival like game to the Eternal empire system, than they suddenly said that there are some factions you need to join. I think the signs are pretty clearly they themselves don`t even know how the game mechanics should look like or how they should work.

They gave some vague big concept descriptions early on and they've built upon those ideas. Somethings have changed but overall not a lot. The hunger consuming the world like a wall of death in the Hunger Dome is still possible (they already have the tech) but they haven't been focusing on that currently. They have entire systems missing that they need to get in before that. However they seem to still have plans in place https://crowfall.com/en/news/articles/beware-the-hunger/

1 hour ago, ferorious said:
  1. Ok i've playd the game for "only" around 3 months but so what? When the kickstarter campaign ended on March 26 on 2015 they collected 1,766,205 USD on June 20 of the same year they had already 7,210,680 USD. They planned to sponsor the project with only 800,000 USD (from kickstarter) so they had about 9 times the planned funds that means they could`ve made this game 9 times in other words you expect that with 6,410,680 USD more than planned that it goes 9 times faster or at least 4 times faster if you plan some unexpected problems.  In summary after 4 years and 9 times more financial support than planned, you can at least expect that the game is in the Alpha and not PreAlpha and that the DEVs know how the game should work and how the final game should look.

They didn't say it would take ONLY 800k. Game development isn't cut and dry where you get X money and then magically make a game. There are unforeseen costs that simply can't be accounted for. I would of liked for things to have progressed faster/better than they have, but is what it is. Wanting them to do something doesn't make it happen. 

1 hour ago, ferorious said:

So for the last point you mentioned the MMORPG genre needs to be saved, you can read that on several forums or news sites (even youtube), thousends of players have this though. There are a lot of MMORPGs thats not even a question but let me explain why with an example out of 10 new MMORPGs 5 have new ideas or are sommething new out of this 5, 2 are avaiable only for korean and the other 3 only wants to milk the cow called customer and so its basically unplayable. And that are only some reasons there are a lot more of reson because the genre has some serious problems (if you want more information just google it there are enough discussions ;D). Of course this game should aim for huge masses or at least, middle class masses because 1.otherwise how could you call your game a MassiveMultiplayerOnline game 2.how do you want to make a realm vs realm battle? with 10vs10 you can`t call that a realm battle. So I don`t know why you mentioned Fortnite, Overwatch and the other games because they have other commuitys and are completely different genres

What does saving the genre look like? A game needs to have 10 million players? Be 100% unique based on your criteria? 

Crowfall has a lot of new ideas and or ideas found in multiple games/genres but they are being put into one game. I don't know of any MMOs with campaigns such as this for example.

People still play Ultima Online, Everquest, DAoC, and of course millions still play WoW. Newer games and older ones have adopted questionable payment models and things some do not like, but people still play those games (Black Desert, Archage). Like I commented, just because YOU do not like them, doesn't mean they aren't good. 

ACE has said from the start that they aren't aiming at large numbers because that would require making a game they don't want to make. Even then it isn't very realistic that a MMO is going to come out and pull in huge numbers. Every high end MMO that has come out gets an initial rush of players then they bleed out. Crowfall might be like that, but I'm fine with them starting small and slowly building over time or just keeping enough to have several campaigns going at once. 

A game doesn't need to have millions of players to be good or successful. I've never played on a server with millions of people. A few thousand or even a few hundred is plenty as long as the game design is smart. How many do you need for RvR? 50, 100, 500 on each side at all times? We aren't sure how well Crowfall will do with massive numbers yet. Camelot Unchained has an in-house engine that so far seems to support large numbers for RvR. Again, I backed it as well because I have no idea which game will end up better for me.

I mentioned Fortnite/Overwatch because those are the games that do well these days. Easy to learn, hard to master, hop in/out whenever you want. In this era of mobile/lobby gaming, it seems like most just want a quick fix. MMOs take an entirely different time/effort investment that I don't see the masses really wanting anymore. Someone that like WoW or GW2 or insert whatever MMO might not like Crowfall because it is a different game. Just as you might not like the hundreds of games already out there.

36 minutes ago, ferorious said:

So ok then let cast the hunger dome thing away for a moment, the DEVs definitly have some kind of ideas and they already stated them in videos and other announcments like the hunger thing that we mentioned. Like showed in the commend above:

  Reveal hidden contents
  1. Ok i've playd the game for "only" around 3 months but so what? When the kickstarter campaign ended on March 26 on 2015 they collected 1,766,205 USD on June 20 of the same year they had already 7,210,680 USD. They planned to sponsor the project with only 800,000 USD (from kickstarter) so they had about 9 times the planned funds that means they could`ve made this game 9 times in other words you expect that with 6,410,680 USD more than planned that it goes 9 times faster or at least 4 times faster if you plan some unexpected problems.  In summary after 4 years and 9 times more financial support than planned, you can at least expect that the game is in the Alpha and not PreAlpha and that the DEVs know how the game should work and how the final game should look.

They have the founds and they had the time so why didn't they make all the things they've statet? Simple because they don't know how they should implement all the things they have said and promised.

Having an idea and making are two different things. I have no doubt that the devs want to do a lot and planned a lot, but it takes time, money, and especially dev talent. Some things might just be too hard to pull off for whatever reason and they are trashed, changed, or morph into something else.

Looking at something from 4 years ago and what is going on today might have some disconnect but for the most part it is the same vision. For those of us that have been following along it isn't so confusing I guess.

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22 minutes ago, ferorious said:

Of course you couldn't but do you think the number 800k came from nothing? If so i'm really sorry but then I MUST say as someone who studied economy that this game will go bankrupt. You may also have noticed that I said following thing:

Also I never said that the 6,410,680 USD, that were more than planned would be enough for financing this game, you are putting words in my mouth, what I said was that with such a big of an amount of time and money, that the IDEA/Game mechanics/goal of the game should at least be clear and you could at least expect the status of Alpha and not preAlpha.
In the link what you have sended they also clearly stated what i've mentioned and feared: The developers don't know what the game should look like themselves:

So why do you care about this project or give them money if you believe they don't know what they are doing and are on a road to bankruptcy?

Guess I'm missing what your point is. The game could be good if they just make it good like you believe it should?

If you don't understand the basic idea, mechanics, goals, then you haven't read/watched enough to understand.

They aren't calling it Alpha yet so now what?

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@ZatchGame concept: "Within these seasons there is a day/night cycle, and every night in game the Hunger will consume a bit more of the world. Monsters will become twisted and corrupted, food resources will become more scarce, and the world will become riddled with Hunger – which the players will have to destroy if they want to continue to harvest resources to survive.

As the central narrative driver of conflict in the Crowfall universe, the Hunger is a dark, supernatural phenomenon of unknown origins. It exists in parallel to, or potentially even as a counter-point to, the divinity of the Gods. It spreads across the land like a pox – a nocturnal disease that affects the land, the trees, and every living creature that it touches. The Hunger manifests in two ways: as a contagion that infects the world and in the corruption of creatures that live there."

Live game: "Faction Points wins!!!"

Edited by hamon

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11 minutes ago, hamon said:

Game concept: "Within these seasons there is a day/night cycle, and every night in game the Hunger will consume a bit more of the world. Monsters will become twisted and corrupted, food resources will become more scarce, and the world will become riddled with Hunger – which the players will have to destroy if they want to continue to harvest resources to survive."

Live game: Faction Points wins...

Are you missing that the game is still being completed?

It isn't a live "game" but rather a live testing phase with a lot missing.

https://crowfall.com/en/news/articles/beware-the-hunger/

Clearly they still have plans to keep the Hunger as part of a game mechanic or rather multiple mechanics. 

They mentioned a few systems or rules for winning a campaign. The current one is just the current version being tested. Don't believe they said anywhere "Hunger is trashed, Faction Points forever!!!"

They haven't even added The Dregs yet nor how scoring, winning, rewarding will work.

If you believe the sky is falling, grab an umbrella and run to another game.

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15 minutes ago, hamon said:

@ZatchGame concept: "Within these seasons there is a day/night cycle, and every night in game the Hunger will consume a bit more of the world. Monsters will become twisted and corrupted, food resources will become more scarce, and the world will become riddled with Hunger – which the players will have to destroy if they want to continue to harvest resources to survive."

You realize these mechanics are all in game, right?


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8 minutes ago, Jah said:

You realize these mechanics are all in game, right?

In a secondary role. It is not above the faction points in importance to win a game!!!

"As the central narrative driver of conflict in the Crowfall universe, the Hunger is a dark, supernatural phenomenon of unknown origins. It exists in parallel to, or potentially even as a counter-point to, the divinity of the Gods. It spreads across the land like a pox – a nocturnal disease that affects the land, the trees, and every living creature that it touches. The Hunger manifests in two ways: as a contagion that infects the world and in the corruption of creatures that live there."

Edited by hamon

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14 minutes ago, hamon said:

In a secondary role. It is not above the faction points in importance to win a game!!!

"As the central narrative driver of conflict in the Crowfall universe, the Hunger is a dark, supernatural phenomenon of unknown origins. It exists in parallel to, or potentially even as a counter-point to, the divinity of the Gods. It spreads across the land like a pox – a nocturnal disease that affects the land, the trees, and every living creature that it touches. The Hunger manifests in two ways: as a contagion that infects the world and in the corruption of creatures that live there."

What's your point?

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23 minutes ago, APE said:

What's your point?

My point? I am just demonstrating that the current game has abandoned the original idea that everything in CF revolved around surviving against Hunger, collecting, looting, killing and doing all sorts of things just to stay alive. In the concept of the game it is the main element and now the DEVs launch live campaign where the most important are the faction points or create guilds? I know there the original idea was so good and the DEVs turned into this joke of campaigns with faction points, guild points, fuuuck points. This ended the immersion of the whole story they created in first project. Hunger now is one secondary abstract element in game.

Edited by hamon

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