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Noph

Fae racials seem mandatory?

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Hey Crows. Been toying around with the Assassin these past days, and one thing about the current designs really springs to mind. Designing racials with certain classes in mind, seems to defeat the purpose of allowing other races to play this class. Especially in a pvp game where RP etc seem less likely.

I realise balance isn't a thing in the game yet, but looking at the various racials, I simply can't see why you'd ever NOT pick Fae. The 70% stealth speed alone is incredibly powerful (and specifically designed for the Assassin. Let's not pretend that's of any use to Druids or Frostweavers) but when you add stealthed gliding on top it's like you're almost nerfing yourself by NOT picking them. And we've not even begun to look at what a gap closer (or creator) double jump + dash is. Being the only dash that can be activated mid-air, you cover WAY more than the 16 metres that are advertised.

Need to disengage so you can re-stealth? Jump dash, jump dash, disengage, flip re-engage, jump dash. You're practically on another continent by now. Is there a hill anywhere close by you can dash off of? Then blimey, you just flew even further.

Need to chase someone down? Same as above. You're faster than anyone... It seems to me that not only are Fae so obviously better assassins that nothing compares. Other races actually seem worse, simply by virtue of existing in a world where Fae assassins are an option. I can't think of a scenario in which a Fae assassin would lose to a non-Fae assassin, all else being equal?

Am I wrong in this assumption? Have I missed something? I know that for Myrmidons etc, Half Giant was a no-brainer, but that might have changed with the damage immunity nerf. Suddenly that "no stun" and charge from the cow is beginning to at least look interesting. But for Assassins, what does a Half Elf or Nethari bring to the table? Nether Rush is cool and the hovering effect means it can be used to dash up cliffs etc if angled right, thereby presenting some interesting escape mechanisms, but that's it. The bonus to fire damage again seems like a racial made specifically for one class.

Am I missing something here?

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Not wrong about the Fae racial advantages.  Ive played around with high elf assy and its just not the same.  Maybe if the high elf racial power were strengthened it could make up for the fae big mobility advantage.

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High Elf racials are damage wise a lot stronger.

Half Elf stats are a lot higher and out of combat mobility is better.

Fae in stealth movement is good and their small scale dodge and weave is good.

Nethari - Longest dodges for escape of the races. AoE DoT, higher crit damage.

 

The Far is by far not mandatory.

Edited by Soulreaver

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5 minutes ago, Soulreaver said:

High Elf racials are damage wise a lot stronger.

Half Elf stats are a lot higher and out of combat mobility is better.

Fae in stealth movement is good and their small scale dodge and weave is good.

Nethari - Longest dodges for escape of the races. AoE DoT, higher crit damage.

 

The Far is by far not mandatory.

so why I dont see nethari and high elfes playing assassins?

coz stealth speed, double jumps/long fly which abusable for escape and for wall/roof jumps, fall dmg immunity and pretty much the same stats (+/- 10-20 stats is not a mandatory) which is tweakable by vessels

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No matter how many more attributes or racial abilities the other races have, there is no other option for assassins and it IS MANDATORY to play a fae. 

Mobility is key, there is no doubt about that for this class.

@Soulreaver I never saw you playing something else than Fae for your assassin. Do you believe you could really perform as good with another race, as you do with the fae? 

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Unless those amulets somehow give you a gap closer / disengage like the jump dash the Fae have, I just don't see it. Mind, I lack experience in Crowfall, so I won't claim that I know best. But I've worked with enough games during the design phase, reviewed and critiqued enough once they launch and played enough to think this is a glaring design flaw. It would appear I'm not alone with this observation.

The unprecedented ability to engage and disengage at will is essentially the backbone of a hit an run class, like the Assassin, which is basically just the stealth burst archetype. Once the burst is over, you run and reset. It's an archetype that's designed to pick favourable fights and avoid the others. The slow-fall (while stealthed?!) only adds to this. Now we've added verticality to a single race, which massively benefits a class that wants to pick fights as inopportune times.

All of the above would be powerful enough, but add 70% stealthed walk speed on top, and it's kinda clear to see this race was made specifically with assassins in mind. I'm not sure that's a great idea, in a competitive game.

Edited by Noph

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U’r expecting things to be 100% balanced - they wont be.  So start by moving away from that.

 

Secondly you’re expecting all assassins to play - hit’n’run.  They dont need to be played as such.

 

An extra Amulet slot as well as the potential for an extra dodge is more than enough to make me look at the High Elf a second time.

 

As for stealth movement speed.  Well yes its good. Personally on the present maps I spend more time out of stealth moving from A to B - where the Half Elf has the advantage.

 

Your presumptions means that for your gamestyle only the Fae seems to work.  Thats cool.  Im not saying that the advantages of the fay arent as u have stated.  Just that you downplay the other races a lot incorrectly.

 

Edit:

U assume all need/want a gap closer - u dont see it - doesnt transfer into me holding your hand and telling u all of the small tasty tricks of a class/race.

Explore them a bit more yourself.

Edited by Soulreaver

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A lot is being made of the in-stealth movement speed and I'd just like to point out that there are a number of Brigands out and about completely destroying people as Wood Elves and Minotaurs, neither of which have the Fae in-stealth movement speed. It's a really good trait to have, absolutely, but it's not going to help you catch anyone that's not already standing still.

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2 minutes ago, moneda said:

A lot is being made of the in-stealth movement speed and I'd just like to point out that there are a number of Brigands out and about completely destroying people as Wood Elves and Minotaurs, neither of which have the Fae in-stealth movement speed. It's a really good trait to have, absolutely, but it's not going to help you catch anyone that's not already standing still.

Come on @moneda make em work for it.

@Truth though to what u say.

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So your point for halfelf would be better for your current playstyle is the trailblazer? Good news, there is something called Bard. This makes you even faster. Sad that there is no dicipline for stealthspeed, doublejump, a faster dodgeroll, gliding and midairdodge. 

Really amusing how you jump on the first post which covers your back...in some point, even if its most likeley offtopic and its not about catching ppl while stealthed, but disengaging. 

Had a good laugh in here. Thx for the entertainment of yet another "my race/class combination favorite IS NOT IMBALANCED AT ALL"-discussion.

Gapcloser... you prolly wish you would have more after failing your jump on me with another assassin and 2 other ppl last night farming cats and not being able to catch up with a Highelf-Confessor xD

No worries... will not share that vid to shame you and your awesome hidden knowledge of gameplay.

Looking forward to meet you as a halfelf or highelf soon... I guess the duration from 5.8 release till that recent wipe wasnt enough time to get a second necklace. Good luck on getting one in the upcoming weeks till the next itemwipe ;)

Edited by Makuza

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18 minutes ago, Makuza said:

Gapcloser... you prolly wish you would have more after failing your jump on me with another assassin and 2 other ppl last night farming cats and not being able to catch up with a Highelf-Confessor xD

No worries... will not share that vid to shame you and your awesome hidden knowledge of gameplay.

 

Apparently it seems the truth of what happened disappeared in all the salt.  

 

Thanks for the hands and gold btw.

 

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There is no salt. Is that that some kind of last resort argument? Iam impartial. I have no problem either fighting or playing with the assassin and Iam not maining any class. The whole point of this thread is, that there is only one valid choice for this one class and I agree with that. 

Do whatever you want, but stay on topic and try atleast to be objective.

 

'Thanks for the hands and gold btw.' 

Even if it wouldnt have wiped.. it was gold from ~6 mobs (1k). How about posting that vid how awesome you managed to kill me in the pits with 6 others on your side in a fight which took over 2min xD

Edited by Makuza

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So pointing out the benefits of the other races is being partial.  Riighhtt gotcha.

I was in no way stating the Fae isnt a strong stealth class - just that there are other viable play styles.  Its all dependent on the role you’re assuming.

 

As for staying on subject -chuckles- whatever dude.  

I’ll save u the trouble and tjek to see if I dont have that clip of what happened when I get home then toss it up for u. 

 

Edited by Soulreaver

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While not "mandatory" Fae mobility is too good to pass up on if it is an option for your class and you are a competitive player. It is so good that I won't even bother looking into duelist as a stealth class and am hyped as custard about a frost mage with fae mobility. 

-Stealth movement speed is a massive quality of life feature for any stealth player for both running away and chasing or scouting. It is good enough to enable certain plays that other stealth classes could never do. To increase stealth diversity the same passive should be found on guinies and somewhere within the stealth ranger specc talent tree. (If not the full 70% value then at least give them something. Stealthing on a ranger feels horribly slow. Guinies should probably not get the full 70% because they have the burrow teleport. ) 

-Glide is good on its own and is gameplay enabling. What makes glide OP is that when you dodge roll off a cliff you will maintain velocity until you hit the ground. This allows fae to move across the landscape with unequaled speed and the more creative the devs get with terrain features the stronger this becomes. The one game feature putting this into check is fall damage. Luckily you can just glide when you are 5 feet off the ground and avoid that damage all together. I'm not sure if this is intended. If it should be nerfed or other classes should have their mobility brought up is up for debate and I could be persuaded either way. 

With all that being said, Fae is really fun to play. How good their baked in mobility is is a good thing, it makes the game more fun. I don't think nerfing them into the ground would be good for the overall health of the game but would rather see other stealth archetypes gain some flavor of these quality of life benefits of the Fae.

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The obvious solution would be to make the Fae glide not usable in the air like every other racial, dont think that will happen as devs specifically made a point of Fae being able to do this.

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3 hours ago, Grivyn said:

The obvious solution would be to make the Fae glide not usable in the air like every other racial, dont think that will happen as devs specifically made a point of Fae being able to do this.

Yeah, they seem pretty sold on the idea of being able to mix in glides between dashes and jumps. I don't think they want the glider to be limited to just merely sprinting off a cliff.
Edit: That would fix the problem though, although I don't like it (not nearly as fun).

Edited by Unnamed

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On 2/1/2019 at 11:09 PM, Unnamed said:

Yeah, they seem pretty sold on the idea of being able to mix in glides between dashes and jumps. I don't think they want the glider to be limited to just merely sprinting off a cliff.
Edit: That would fix the problem though, although I don't like it (not nearly as fun).

I don't actually think they need remove it. But giving aerial manoeuvrability to a single race, along with double jump AND a glide... That's arguably more impactful in terms of movement than what anyone else gets. If the dash was changed to a wing flap (a much shorter dash), akin to what the Human or Half-Elf dodge rolls are, they could retain the ability to be the only race in the game, that could dash while not touching the ground. But they couldn't just double jump, dash, double jump, dash and suddenly outpace every other race in the game, with no risk.

The Stealth bonus I'm still opposed to, but that's just because having a single race that's "obviously best" for a single class is poor design. When giving multiple races the option to be a class, they should all bring something different to the table, that could play into build diversity. As it stands, Fae are bringing more than the others. Especially given the "hit and run" nature of assassins, having a race that has built-in "run" mechanics that no class or race combo can match, it seems too safe without any real counterplays.

Some argue that you spec specifically to counter Fae, but again, this is then a racial feature that no one else has. No one spec's specifically to counter Elken or Human classes, for instance. So while I'm not saying "nerf Fae into the ground", it does beg the question whether the others then need to be "better" at what they do. And have more of an identity, to match specialising in a single thing, like the Fae currently can.

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Assasin stealth speed should come with specing stealth. And I think their should be a minor discapline that gives a passive 20% run speed in stealth to help non assasin. Stealthers. Could this make fae assasins faster yes if they wish to loose a minor slot. Or put it in major discapline like provocateur.

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