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xary

Vandal

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In 5.8 I seen a ton of Cutthroats and a few Blackguard. 5.8.1 seems about the same with more Blackguards now.

Anyone tried a Vandal or running one as a main? The main class ability seems like a pretty decent skill. Just curious before I try to level one.

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1 hour ago, xary said:

What do you think of it? 

I was hoping for a more death by a thousand cuts, aka dot build. I feel like they were trying for an identity they didn't really achieve. At first glance, it looks like the promote is a dot build, and it does give you strong dots and a bleed. But it's a control build. Feels like Blackguard has the Vandal's passive for the penultimate node.

The loss of diffuse on all Assassins hurt. I can't believe they big spender is meant to be the way it currently is. So now you have to play a hit them an apply dots playstyle. Which can be kind of fun, but the dots don't play well with disciplines.

Currently without diffuse being able to do any kind of damage with poison toxin, the most damaging dot is your nature toxin. Normally it ticks 4 times and can be spread to nearby enemies (which probably only useful if you find yourself killing mobs). Highest I had mine ticking in crap gear on the new Vandal was 730 a tick. 

The only way to really have all 3 main ones (poison, corruption, bleed) is by taking poisoner. This turns all your dmg into poison damage, and prevents your nature toxin from applying normally. You can however diffuse on it still and apply the nature toxin dot. This cuts off the first tick as far as I can tell, leaving you only with 3 ticks of the dot each diffuse. But 3 stacks of the poison dot from poisoner ticks like 40 times from 11-12 dmg usually. Which only makes up ~420 of the dmg loss of the missing tick but lasts on target longer. I think poison is less resisted though so should net more damage.

The bleed dot on kidney is pretty decent and i think if you are using a hit them and load the dots, and retreat into stealth game play, you can apply a lot of dmg. Especially since Vandal is the control spec and gets a 6 sec opener stun, 8 second suppress if backstabbing from behind, and 6 second kidney. 

Still testing it all to see how I like it. Really hurts still though going from ~1450-1600 diffuse non crits pre patch to ~400 diffuse hits. Hoping it gets 'fixed'. The damage and dot damage alone isn't stellar enough any spec is fine as is.

Also disciplines need to be changed. Either to not overwrite the Sin's dots, makes it so the same type stacks with Sin's boosting the severity (ie. a moderate poison becomes a severe poison but still only 1 dot effect), or the dream wish. That being Vandal Sins being the dot spec, making it so that you chooses your toxin to slot, but applies all 3 toxins at once, and diffuse just applies the secondary of the toxin slotted.

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Vandal is bad because CC is bad. Everyone just retaliates or CC immunes out of everything you have. You're just as squishy as Cutthroat but don't do as much damage and can't utilize a hit and run strategy nearly as well. 

If retaliate got nerfed, CC immunes were less common, or we had some reliable way of tracking diminishing returns then the spec would maybe be decent. 

Even then it's by far the hardest spec to play optimally. 

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49 minutes ago, ZYBAK said:

Vandal is bad because CC is bad. Everyone just retaliates or CC immunes out of everything you have. You're just as squishy as Cutthroat but don't do as much damage and can't utilize a hit and run strategy nearly as well. 

If retaliate got nerfed, CC immunes were less common, or we had some reliable way of tracking diminishing returns then the spec would maybe be decent. 

Even then it's by far the hardest spec to play optimally. 

If someone CC immunes they are going to affect the specs equally. At least at that point Vandal has stronger dots on someone. And I'm not sure how it's any harder to hit and run when they have access to the exact tools as any other spec to do it. Cheap shot is unaffected by CC reduction and I'm not sure they can even retaliate out of it. At least I haven't had anyone do that yet. Their passive cheats death if you do custard up. And with diffuse broken for all specs, I'm just here scratching my head.

I know you like to kill the noobs that just stand there, and run on anyone who actually reacts to your popping on them. But I'm not following your line of thinking here.

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7 minutes ago, Navystylz said:

If someone CC immunes they are going to affect the specs equally. At least at that point Vandal has stronger dots on someone. And I'm not sure how it's any harder to hit and run when they have access to the exact tools as any other spec to do it. Cheap shot is unaffected by CC reduction and I'm not sure they can even retaliate out of it. At least I haven't had anyone do that yet. Their passive cheats death if you do custard up. And with diffuse broken for all specs, I'm just here scratching my head.

I know you like to kill the noobs that just stand there, and run on anyone who actually reacts to your popping on them. But I'm not following your line of thinking here.

- The strength of retaliate effects CC specs more than other specs. That's why NONE of the CC specs for any of the classes are meta right now.

- Vandal doesn't have access to Ambush or the passives/talents that make Backstab hit hard that really enable the hit and run playstyle.

- You can retaliate out of Cheap Shot. (unless it was changed)

 

Salt for salt god. 

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Just now, ZYBAK said:

- The strength of retaliate effects CC specs more than other specs. That's why NONE of the CC specs for any of the classes are meta right now.

- Vandal doesn't have access to Ambush or the passives/talents that make Backstab hit hard that really enable the hit and run playstyle.

- You can retaliate out of Cheap Shot. (unless it was changed)

 

Salt for salt god. 

People keep parroting this idea of CC sucks because retaliate, but I can say from the receiving end it is not like this in practice. I get one retaliate off and then I'm stuck in everything else. The ONLY time this is the case is when using a power like from Juggernaut to CC immune. So makes me wonder if people are actually experiencing this, or are they just continuously parroting the same stuff being said.

Vandal gets cheap shot. I'm not sure how much damage ambush does, but you can get a lot of stuff off in 6 minutes of unmitigated stun. If the damage of backstab is significant enough because of the 10% talent, then toxins being 30% stronger is significant enough to put the damage elsewhere. Also backstab suppresses on Vandal. Bleed on kidney shot is damage that cutthroat doesn't have. 

Sure if everyone is rocking a field surgeon, to clear all dots you could be in trouble. But you're already backing off to restealth. You will see the cleanse happen, and then it's on cooldown.

I know you play Assassin a lot, but I can only speak on my experience on all my character when it comes to getting CC. You are not spamming retaliate to remove anything. You get it once you wait. You get hit and don't have all your stam, you wait. If it's being broken more than that, it's not retaliate. It's flash casted CC immune/breakers which can't really do anything about. It's a valid discipline choice or power that some classes have.

Currently I haven't had anyone actually retaliate my Cheap Shot. So not sure if it's because they can't. Gonna jump into my EK and test it out right now. At the end of the day, Vandal gets 3 types of control. Retaliate without going immune and you can apply another and back off. I thought you were speaking on their ability to disengage compared to others, which is just the same. But you're talking application of damage each time. 

 

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On 01.02.2019 at 12:34 AM, ZYBAK said:

Vandal is bad because CC is bad. Everyone just retaliates or CC immunes out of everything you have. You're just as squishy as Cutthroat but don't do as much damage and can't utilize a hit and run strategy nearly as well. 

If retaliate got nerfed, CC immunes were less common, or we had some reliable way of tracking diminishing returns then the spec would maybe be decent. 

Even then it's by far the hardest spec to play optimally. 

very strong dots. with the tactic hit'n'run vandal is the most usefull build I think. well I got very big dots. not such big as you did with top weapons in 5.8 as Cutthroat but still.

if retaliate got nerfed there will be no life for some classes. I mean they will make other builds useless and ofc will kill some mechanics with some classes.

On 01.02.2019 at 1:41 AM, ZYBAK said:

 

On 01.02.2019 at 1:29 AM, Navystylz said:

If someone CC immunes they are going to affect the specs equally. At least at that point Vandal has stronger dots on someone. And I'm not sure how it's any harder to hit and run when they have access to the exact tools as any other spec to do it. Cheap shot is unaffected by CC reduction and I'm not sure they can even retaliate out of it. At least I haven't had anyone do that yet. Their passive cheats death if you do custard up. And with diffuse broken for all specs, I'm just here scratching my head.

I know you like to kill the noobs that just stand there, and run on anyone who actually reacts to your popping on them. But I'm not following your line of thinking here.

- The strength of retaliate effects CC specs more than other specs. That's why NONE of the CC specs for any of the classes are meta right now.

- Vandal doesn't have access to Ambush or the passives/talents that make Backstab hit hard that really enable the hit and run playstyle.

- You can retaliate out of Cheap Shot. (unless it was changed)

 

hit and run mean you did not kill newb in 3 hits with over 3k each. this mean you put on dots and run/stealth. repeat it until he die. most annoying tactic I've even see in any games I played. this will even works vs heavy armored guyz which have much more better gear than you (poison/bleed have not so big mitigation or close to zero). cheap shot can give you a time to put on dots and stealth. how many discs have dots removers and how effective they are for every class you know.

try out to repeat 3-hit kills with white/green weapons as cuttroat. also I was unable to retaliate Cheap shot with Juggernault and regular retaliate. did not test other discs which can be bugged as everything in this game

I playing mostly in white gear. This will be gear of the most small scale or solo players which will be main community I sure. it is hard, very hard. especially if you fight 3+ solo and not stealther =)

 

Edited by makkon

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CC specs need a way to deal with retaliate atm. Imo CC build shoul get a talent that prevent the enemy using retaliate for X seconds based on you hard CC modifier vs opponents CC protection. I feel this is a good solution for the CC classes that wont make other classes broken aswell.
CC build already suffer from super low DPS on comparison to there counterparts because they have CC in there kit so devs lowered there dmg output to make up for it however unfortunately CC is kinda pointless and in alot of cases worst to use due to juggernaut for example healing them 4% of there Max hp with ur already low dmg it cant be realy bad to use. For example i vsed a dirge with jugganunt and i literaly was doing do dmg to him dispite using a blue heavy mace on a sentinel cause he was out healing my dmg out put which is incredibly low now with the weapon nerf in last patch he was basicly regening 95% of my dmg output with Juggernaut alone. 

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I did go into EK to test Cheap Shot. You can retaliate it. But then you have at least 2 others you can use if they retaliate early. It's like hitting trinket early in World of Warcraft vs Rogue stunlock. You leave yourself open for the kidney shot, and in the case of Crowfall the suppression on backstab.

Hurt more on people who already used some stam out in world. Maybe making it so that retaliating a CC spec ability takes more stam. Or gives a few sec debuff to stam regen so that blocking/parrying classes can't retaliate, block, retaliate, block.

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Looking back to SWG, we had 2 different resource bars: Action & Mind. Each resource regenerated over time up to the pool's cap, according to the character's attributes. Each skill used some amount of one or both resources. Most skills were damage or CC skills, but some could be used to attack an enemy's resource pools. Combat medic causing you grief? Get a Rifleman to do a Mind Shot on him; wreck his mind pool and he's no threat.

Drawing from that, should some classes have skills that can attack a target's stamina pool, allowing CC to become effective? This could be any of removing stored resource, suppressing resource regeneration or reducing the pool's capacity.

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Ive tried Vandal today for a bit. Had a few okay fights. The fights were definitely taking longer than I’d like. Had to remove Poisoner Disc as it definitely was overwriting my Nature toxin (as it never seems to prock) and that made the spec terrible. Once removed my Nature dot started proc’g and hit pretty good. It’s nice having a bleed also. 

Currently Using Blunt weapons and it’s okay not great. Need pip to use the blunt stun so not sure how I feel about that.

I’m sure I’m missing the ideal setup. Vandal feels like it could work so I’ll keep trying.

 

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Biggest issue I see is so.e of the skills in blackguard (poison related should be i  vandal and vice versa. Kinda a dot path, cc path and big damage positional build. I also after playing non fae classes there needs to be a minor discapline for stealth run speed. Otherwise is fae or nothing.  Imo Poisoner Discipline should allow you to equip 2 different poisons. Poison dart seems meh unless I missing something about it. Id rather it be a ranged snare dot i stead of what it currently is. I'd rather be able to catch runners.

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