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PaleOne

The faction war experiment is a failure- Bring the dregs

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I view faction warfare in CF, the same way I viewed FW in EvE; it's there to pass the time when nothing else is going on in 0.0 (the Dregs).  Faction Warfare allows new players to ease into the game and the GvG aspect.  There are so many players that have no idea why SB was so good (even with all of it's problems and smaller playerbase).

I would guess they need about 80% of the players to find FW fun, so they can keep the doors open to Dregs campaign; similar to how at one time only 20% of players in EvE ventured into 0.0 space.  While EvE was built from the ground up for PvP it had to entice other playstyles in order to keep 0.0 active.  I just hope that ACE remembers that CF is supposed to be PvP first and then everything else second.

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6 hours ago, Teufel said:

... Faction Warfare allows new players to ease into the game and the GvG aspect. 

I think the majority here, myself included, would like a straight line to dregs development approach.  But I think ACE is doing right providing some focus on faction play as we do need good introductions to game to attract and hopefully develop more dregs players.  I view faction as a potential crucible for a steady stream of more dregs players.  That said, I think its pretty close and perhaps good enough to get some focus on dregs!

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58 minutes ago, Cosian said:

I think the majority here, myself included, would like a straight line to dregs development approach.  But I think ACE is doing right providing some focus on faction play as we do need good introductions to game to attract and hopefully develop more dregs players.  I view faction as a potential crucible for a steady stream of more dregs players.  That said, I think its pretty close and perhaps good enough to get some focus on dregs!

I would prefer faction campaigns to be short conflicts and dregs being the longer ones. I envision faction campaigns to be sort of like short mercenary conflicts in a far flung regions.

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13 hours ago, PaleOne said:

What we really needs is SB2

Give us the dregs and guild vs guild competition with alliances we choose!

6 month to a year campaigns! where progress lasts long enough to fight to keep it.

I wonder how many people are going to play in the dregs after they lose over and over because their guild won’t do whatever it takes to win.  The dregs isn’t going to be some great savior; factions is a small guilds best best to win.  

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33 minutes ago, mandalore said:

I wonder how many people are going to play in the dregs after they lose over and over because their guild won’t do whatever it takes to win.  The dregs isn’t going to be some great savior; factions is a small guilds best best to win.  

Faction Warfare, could be a great thing by allowing small guilds to grow enough to then enter the Dregs.  You saw this quite a bit in EvE, where smaller 5-10 man corps would join a small-medium alliance in 0.0 space.  Sometimes those small corps had great leadership and grew, sometimes those Corps imploded; but most of the time the actual players regardless of growth or implosion had the bug for 0.0. 

I understand that the mechanics of CF are to have dying worlds, but I believe this will hurt the game, when you don't have simply one large Dregs that never ends.  At a minimun a year long Dregs campaign is needed, while the dying faction worlds are month long and less.

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My point is most of the problems people are complaining about can be resolved by alliances not being forced and the ability to change allegiance.

in SB there was real HATRED between some guilds— they would NEVER work together.

 

People are complaining about faction imbalances, invulnerable cross faction spying night caps and  more.

i think the dregs can solve a lot of this.

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1 hour ago, PaleOne said:

My point is most of the problems people are complaining about can be resolved by alliances not being forced and the ability to change allegiance.

in SB there was real HATRED between some guilds— they would NEVER work together.

 

People are complaining about faction imbalances, invulnerable cross faction spying night caps and  more.

i think the dregs can solve a lot of this.

Yes, the Dregs do solve problems that Factions create.

But the Faction campaigns have a purpose. They are not a "failed experiment" just because the Dregs will be better. They are there to provide an option for new players who don't have a guild, aren't ready to join a guild, or don't want to join a guild. They will help to get a wider audience of players into the game.

You don't want to play Factions, I don't want to play Factions, and many other people don't want to play Factions. That doesn't mean they are a "failed experiment" or don't have a role to play in Crowfall.

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One reason faction doesn’t seem great is there are no difference between factions. None. Daoc still going with faction based content. Obviously SB was/is not like that and I don’t believe these devs know how to make that work.

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I think having the faction campaign band, with the less risky loot rules involved, will be healthy for the people new to pvp-centric mmos. If we can get it to a point where it is successful it may create a constant flow of new blood into the big boy campaigns, almost like training wheels for the uninitiated.

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If Crowfall is a success I wouldn't be surprised if they develop new projects/expansions down the road responsive to demand for something persistent and dreg-like.  I also long for SB2 but I understand why they are approaching things this way.  SB was a loooong time ago in MMO years (which are like dog years) and lets admit it sometimes our memories get rosier over time.  The SB model did have some fundamental flaws, for those who remember the depopulated servers ruled by Uncle Bobs.

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Faction play is a critical new player hook IMO. New people don't want to get roasted or immediately join some existing organization the day they drop in. They have no idea what's going on, don't know who any of the bigger organizations are, and most aren't likely to do outside research.

SB's "safehold" model was a stopgap for this exact problem, in a persistant world format. it gave players a "default" NPC guild in order to learn the ropes and benefit from some level of security. Safeholds forced players to leave with a level lockout, often before they were ready. It left them the option of SDR if they wanted additional time before getting in to the big leagues.

However, those players that couldn't commit to certain schedules necessary for a win in SB were effectively pushed out of the game. This was bad for the game's population.

Faction campaigns are an elegant solution that solves both of these problems cleanly. They serve as that newbie training ground and also don't force more casual players who like the open PvP cometitive ruleset but don't have the time to be valuable in a more freeform ruleset by allowing them to stay there and compete among players of similar gear and overall composition. Clamping the resource quality also ensures that consistant alpha predators are encouraged to behave as intended and leave for greener pastures and better stuff and divest the faction campaigns of a lot of the power and tactical imbalances we have now that can make them frustrating for new players that run in to the likes of a WB or UDL who should be beating on each other and ganking people with a much better eye for what they're up against.

The only problem with faction campaigns at the moment is that players that shouldn't be in them are in them. Dregs opening will do more good for faction campaigns than any half measure to patch out emergent gameplay. People will still have cross faction spy alts (and it doesn't matter anyway) and people will still try to do dumb poorly made socks to game the system, but the severity of dumb poorly made socks required will drop dramatically when the most efficient performers leave the arena to its intended audience of small guilds, newbies, and solo gankers looking for solo gank targets.

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In my opinion the faction system should focus on casual and introductory to dregs. Using a balance system to factions spontaneously and invite the players to advanced in PvP steadily. The game could take place filled only with the live game with a PvP mission of summoning by Gods.

 

About two months later I said that leaving the game without a steering and balancing system was suicide. I hope that the DEVs create a balancing system that makes new players fight all the time without being afraid to participate in PvP.

Edited by hamon

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On 2/2/2019 at 12:52 PM, mandalore said:

I wonder how many people are going to play in the dregs after they lose over and over because their guild won’t do whatever it takes to win.  The dregs isn’t going to be some great savior; factions is a small guilds best best to win.  

I think SB would have lasted so much longer had they had the reset every (insert # of months). Hell people playing in all types of sports leagues year after year knowing they wont win the championship. People asking for really long campaigns imo are asking for exactly what caused SB to fail. The reset will keep around people who likely would have abandoned the game.. they can make some changes and try again. I think 6 month campaigns would be about perfect..   I know nothing how this game is working right now though.. so I'm stupid to even chime in. :( 

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So the current Campaign is a great example of why human nature makes the faction campaign not work.

 

The first time there is a slight reward for winning-- Everyone joins the same faction to insure victory.

The remaining factions- woefully outnumbered- choose to sit the campaign out or play EU.

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Want to hear from some people that played DoaC as I never did. There seems to be a lot of FW dislike in this thread but DoaC was far more successful then SB. Is there something that DoaC did that CF isn’t doing in regards to FW?

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Just now, Mr.Scapegoat said:

Want to hear from some people that played DoaC as I never did. There seems to be a lot of FW dislike in this thread but DoaC was far more successful then SB. Is there something that DoaC did that CF isn’t doing in regards to FW?

The same love of ones guild that so many have here is what you had in DAOC except it was love of your Faction. Realm Pride. No switching sides. You were locked into a side per server with one account. You of course could always buy a second account. If one side seemed to be losing often times the other two sides would coordinate for a bit to help knock them down a peg or two.

Siege warfare was superior in every way also, with Rams to knock on the door, Hot oil defending the door, climb points for stealth, ladders for tanks (later in the life cycle), keep layouts that mattered, ranged classes that could actually range damage and more. All of the sides were different as well, this includes the classes abilities and looks. There was a place for everyone in the fight just to name a few items. 

Dregs will not solve all of the CF issues. Nor will this Faction system last in its current state.  

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Possibly Unpopular opinion: if we slapped a dreg  campaign down right now nothing would change unless players arbitrarily choose to avoid grouping up into larger and larger alliances.

In general: Motivation and rewards play a  big factor in drawing a wider audience to this sort of game. While there will always be an audience for some sort of game, it’s a question of the audience being big enough and engaged enough to support said game. Will dregs do that? I say probably not. Will dregs as a sub component of multiple types of campaigns that feed into each other work?  Probably, at least much better chance.

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