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Balathan

Tank Champ is Both Fair and Balanced.

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Yeeeah pretty BS tbh :P
Then you have sentinel knight dieing super quickly (Green Plate) and doing 150-250 dmg (Blue heavy weapon) a hit with no CC capability cause of Retaliate being to strong :P

Edited by veeshan

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@thomasblair this is a good example of the side effect of hitpoint bloat on armor.

In this video @Balathan has 13,755 hitpoints unbuffed. For reference, a Level 1 Centaur Champion has about 5,500 hitpoints. Pit Fighter Talent Almighty Hugeness adds 750 for a base of 6,250 hitpoints. 

Add in % of hitpoints based heals on the pit fighter champion and then you have balance issues. 3,700 ultimate warrior heals. This wouldn't be an issue if you couldn't more than double your base hitpoints with armor. 

Instead of the hitpoint bonus on Plate/Mail armor give it "Armor Bonus" similar to what the Champion "Fortification" Talent Gives instead of the Final Damage / Healing Modifier. Other options would be Personal Damage Modifier (reduces incoming damage) and/or Personal Healing Modifier (increases incoming healing). 

  • Leather Head/Boots/Gloves get 2.5% Final Damage / Healing Modifier Each (7.5% Total)
  • Mail Head/Boots/Gloves get 1.25% Final Damage / Healing Modifier Each (3.75% Total) and 1.25% Armor Bonus Each (3.75% Total)
  • Plate Head/Boots/Gloves get 2.5% Armor Bonus Each (7.5% Total)

The other issue with putting hitpoint bonuses on Mail and Plate is that (AFAIK) it gets added to the other source of hitpoints on the armor (such as treated steel, metal scales, metal plates) and then is subject to the final experimentation on the armor.

The other thing replacing the hitpoint bonuses with armor bonus or personal damage/heal modifiers would be that players may start mixing matching armor again instead of always wearing the heaviest thing they can.  The bonus hitpoints far outweigh the final damage/healing modifier you get right now. 

Lowering the power curve on weapons was a great first step. It's now time to do the same for armor. 

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2 hours ago, blazzen said:

@thomasblair this is a good example of the side effect of hitpoint bloat on armor.

In this video @Balathan has 13,755 hitpoints unbuffed. For reference, a Level 1 Centaur Champion has about 5,500 hitpoints. Pit Fighter Talent Almighty Hugeness adds 750 for a base of 6,250 hitpoints. 

Add in % of hitpoints based heals on the pit fighter champion and then you have balance issues. 3,700 ultimate warrior heals. This wouldn't be an issue if you couldn't more than double your base hitpoints with armor. 

Instead of the hitpoint bonus on Plate/Mail armor give it "Armor Bonus" similar to what the Champion "Fortification" Talent Gives instead of the Final Damage / Healing Modifier. Other options would be Personal Damage Modifier (reduces incoming damage) and/or Personal Healing Modifier (increases incoming healing). 

  • Leather Head/Boots/Gloves get 2.5% Final Damage / Healing Modifier Each (7.5% Total)
  • Mail Head/Boots/Gloves get 1.25% Final Damage / Healing Modifier Each (3.75% Total) and 1.25% Armor Bonus Each (3.75% Total)
  • Plate Head/Boots/Gloves get 2.5% Armor Bonus Each (7.5% Total)

The other issue with putting hitpoint bonuses on Mail and Plate is that (AFAIK) it gets added to the other source of hitpoints on the armor (such as treated steel, metal scales, metal plates) and then is subject to the final experimentation on the armor.

The other thing replacing the hitpoint bonuses with armor bonus or personal damage/heal modifiers would be that players may start mixing matching armor again instead of always wearing the heaviest thing they can.  The bonus hitpoints far outweigh the final damage/healing modifier you get right now. 

Lowering the power curve on weapons was a great first step. It's now time to do the same for armor. 

Another problem with armor is it actualy does nothing defensively appart from HP. most people wil be wunning 25-35% armor penetration since its basicly the only stat you should be rolling on weapons and armor (Unless ur going tanky then u get the crit chance reduction) but other than that. With that you will get about 15-20% armor pen from 2 weapons and another 15% from your armor. So you basically negating armor. As a Knight im only realy getting 10% or so physical reduction in green plate cause of the penetrations on everything.

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3 hours ago, blazzen said:

The other issue with putting hitpoint bonuses on Mail and Plate is that (AFAIK) it gets added to the other source of hitpoints on the armor (such as treated steel, metal scales, metal plates) and then is subject to the final experimentation on the armor.

I don't believe the baseline HP of Armor is subject to Experimentation, only the Additives.
So Leather will always be 750HP behind an equally rolled piece of Plate, Mail will be 375 HP behind/ahead etc.
I may be wrong.

What Blazzen proposed would be great if properly implemented and we wouldn't see such issues as much.

Pit Fighter only continues a trend that Champion has been following since Disciplines were first introduced.
One I've tried to avoid since experimenting with it and seeing how 'dumb' it looks/feels/is.
This got worse with the 'normalization of HP' (Melee getting 5k Base, Ranged 4k-Knight/Templar used to have 6.4 and Champ 4.2 base)
Dominance made Champion damage only climb higher than it already was.
Putting HP on Plate, and then even further buffing that HP only made the self Healing issue worse.
Pit Fighter adds even more Healing and damage mitigation, while giving up most of the Dominance mechanic Champ damage still scales much better than a Knight/Templar for how good their survival ratio. 
Pit Fighter has so much self sustain that it barely needs Healing, a similar issue with Sanctifier and Righteous Shield (thanks for the 5s internal CD...)
The survival to damage ratio is extremely problematic since the introduction of these large %HP Instant Heals which no other class gets.
 

Edited by Scorn

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may be it is a time to remove armor penetration stat?

medium/heavy armor should give % to max HP bonus. easy adjustable for classes/promo +HP bonuses. as well they should give crit chance/crit damage reduction or as Blazzen said Personal Damage Modifier. instead of medium/heavy, leather should be based on dmg

 

ps. pitfighter should be nerfed. slowly, carefully to not kill this class.

pss. on the video of topic starter also another issue - good advanced gear vs white/intermediate ontop of broken class.

Edited by makkon

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pit fighter is fine with the healing if it didn't do the insane damage it does

pit fighter is fine with the damage if it didn't have the insane tankiness/healing it does

pit fighter is fine with its tankiness if it didn't have the insane healing/damage it does

 

basically pit fighter has all 3 things going for it at the moment. it needs to either to do all 3 not so well or be reduced to only doing 1 well and the other 2 not so well....

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16 hours ago, Khenjin said:

pit fighter is fine with the healing if it didn't do the insane damage it does

pit fighter is fine with the damage if it didn't have the insane tankiness/healing it does

pit fighter is fine with its tankiness if it didn't have the insane healing/damage it does

 

basically pit fighter has all 3 things going for it at the moment. it needs to either to do all 3 not so well or be reduced to only doing 1 well and the other 2 not so well....

^

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15 hours ago, Phr00t said:

Pitfighter feels fine now with the weapon nerf IMO : IE, tanky but not such a threat on the battlefield that they require you to target them, or die.

Champs were supposed to be glass cannons. They went completely away from that design and I don't know if it was an actual design choice. They didn't balance much while building this game and now we have a broken class.

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This class is just broken and has been for a while now. Even if champ did zero damage that amount of survivability is still broken and needs to be adjusted. It completely breaks the flow of smaller scale pvp (even in something like a 10v10 it's annoying af) and it's also the one class that can easily cheese solo fort capping. Tank fessor was already nerfed several times, time to put champ on the chopping block 😂

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can u post a video with the new talent trees, disc's, no weapon disc etc also not once in that video were u debuffed with a healing debuff which tells me the people you were fighting had no idea how to counter a champion. Dont get me wrong they are a tough cookie but there are other classes/builds that are just as strong with no self healing abilities

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1 hour ago, PAINDOTCOM said:

can u post a video with the new talent trees, disc's, no weapon disc etc also not once in that video were u debuffed with a healing debuff which tells me the people you were fighting had no idea how to counter a champion. Dont get me wrong they are a tough cookie but there are other classes/builds that are just as strong with no self healing abilities

do not be shy, list em here 😃

1) ...

2) ...

who is 3-th one?

I mean who can kill pitfighter 1v1 with the equal quality of gear, vessel. without bug using like fall dmg, ballista's. and without abusing anti disciplines. just moving around, found pitfighter and put his face in the ground with a coffe in other hand.

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2 minutes ago, makkon said:
do not be shy, list em here 😃

1) ...

2) ...

who is 3-th one?

I mean who can kill pitfighter 1v1 with the equal quality of gear, vessel. without bug using like fall dmg, ballista's. and without abusing anti disciplines. just moving around, found pitfighter and put his face in the ground with a coffe in other hand.

duelist, fessor, assassin to start

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Pitfighters are heavily vulnerable to being kited, so any class that can do so can exploit them. 

Essentially anyone running plague lord can probably kill them.

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