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Zatch

Duelist 5.8 Feedback

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Some feedback for the duelist for 5.8.2. I generally play rapier and this feedback is mostly related to the melee variant of the class.

From my perspective the Duelist isn't fun to play in its current iteration. This stems from a few changes coming in the new talent trees, insane ramp up time, and cool down increases on base class abilities.

The new talent trees are a welcome addition to Crowfall, but they feel half baked as implemented. An easy example of this can be seen in the ability for Flintlock Shot to reset its cool down being tied into the slayer tree versus a class passive. For me this was an interesting mechanic that added some variety to the Duelists DPS. The other two Duelist lines cannot get that reset, and as a result lose that extra class mechanic in exchange for nothing. Talent trees should enhance the base classes not cut and stitch parts from one to make three.

Having armor type tied into the talent trees is also an issue. Currently Plate is a requirement for any combat over 10vs10. Leather wearers die not only to fast, but the extra damage compensation is nowhere near what Plate brings to the table. This results in being forced to play as a Dirge to even have a chance of surviving large group combat on a Duelist. Armor should be a playstyle choice not a requirement.

Duelists have a crazy ramp up time to do alright damage. Here is a typical setup: Ambush for 2 combo points>use flintlock>basic attack>sacrifice a goat to get good RNG>Inconceivable>basic attack>basic attack>basic attack>basic attack>basic attack>Pepperbox Shot>Flintlock Shot>basic attack>basic attack>basic attack>Impale.

That’s 14 GCDs to get your one hard hitting ability off that has to crit to do good damage. No other class in the game has this large of a ramp up time, and is entirely dependent on RNG multiple times in the damage cycle. Combining this with staying alive, and the Duelist feels shackled. Ramp up/momentum classes are fun, but-for the Duelist-it takes to long and doesn’t last long enough.

The change to the skill Tunnel neuters the Duelist. I can’t play a scout on the character, and my ability to make plays in forts has been diminished to the point its non existent. This is honestly the single biggest change that's ruined my enjoyment of the game since backing the Kickstarter. It doesn’t need to be an 8 second cd, but 25 is too damn long; 12-18 would be a decent sweetspot. 

 

Overall the class feels awful this patch. As someone who loved the Duelist and played it exclusively all of 5.5-5.7, I find the class to be disappointingly unplayable and will be switching to other classes moving forward.

Edited by Zatch
Clarity?

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Agree.

Most classes have much better survivability that Duelist because they have access to heal, life leech or heavy armor.
Most classes except healers have better DPS that Duelist. There are tanks that have better damage and utility than Duelists.

Duelist is currently reduced to an extremely long wind-up to do okay, and it only has 1-2 really useful skill. (pepperbox and Impale.... or only pepperbox if you play slayer)

Even with great gear and buffs, you only do 400-1200 damages on a dummy every 6 attacks. Being limited to Crushing Damage, it is particularly low in a real situation and you'll be limited to a couple hundreds of damages at best. There are tank classes with twice the average damage.

So... low health, low survivability, low DPS, low utility... and unplayable during big fights. Anyone who says otherwise has never played a Duelist. This is why:

The camera.

The camera is so low you cannot see whether you are aiming at friends or foe, nor estimate distances. Agent provocateur is your best discipline because it's the only one with a heal, yet you cannot see where you are aiming the stink bomb or caltrops.
Whoever designed the guinecean/duelist forgot to check it for one of the major activities this game has to offer.

Edited by Gaulwa

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13 minutes ago, Gaulwa said:

So... low health, low survivability, low DPS, low utility... and unplayable during big fights. Anyone who says otherwise has never played a Duelist. This is why:

The camera.

The camera angle has really turned me away from the race/class. Which should be a rather simple adjustment to make more enjoyable.

Beyond that, the class needs some love as do many, be it the base or promos.

Was really hoping for more GW2 Thief where using dual pistols, only melee, or one of each would make a different play style, unlock different powers, or at least adjust the base ones to compliment the role.

As is, they crammed everything into one bar and too much is situational or requires XYZ while not providing much in return. 

If Duelist are supposed to gank new players, I guess they'll do that okay.

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Are you exposing them before attacking? After going around ganking over the weekend, I realized a good portion of the damage and cc is tied to getting the expose on them through recon.

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25 minutes ago, Ardeath said:

Are you exposing them before attacking? After going around ganking over the weekend, I realized a good portion of the damage and cc is tied to getting the expose on them through recon.

Which is okay in a ganking or 1v1 situation as the target likely is at a disadvantage anyway and the ganker could be most classes.

Beyond that, good luck exposing someone in a mass of bodies and keeping focus on them, especially with the camera angle.

Would be interesting to have an AOE expose like a flare that would allow multiple targets to receive addition damage/effects from classes that benefit from exposed state.

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14 hours ago, Ardeath said:

Are you exposing them before attacking? After going around ganking over the weekend, I realized a good portion of the damage and cc is tied to getting the expose on them through recon.

As APE mentioned, exposing is difficult and short-lived. It's almost impossible to focus a target in a group fight because you do not have the possibility to get close and the camera angle makes it impossible to target anyone in the back.

Expose also requires you to be stealthed, which is a pain to return from the combat stance, and almost impossible in group fights with the amount of AoE and detection. So no refresh for you unless you use Plague Lord.


Also, what does expose exactly do for a slayer? You get an extra pip and damage on flintlock and guaranteed critical on the weak Go For Broke.
Does it have another effect I am not aware of?

Edited by Gaulwa

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On 2/19/2019 at 1:22 AM, Gaulwa said:

As APE mentioned, exposing is difficult and short-lived. It's almost impossible to focus a target in a group fight because you do not have the possibility to get close and the camera angle makes it impossible to target anyone in the back.

Expose also requires you to be stealthed, which is a pain to return from the combat stance, and almost impossible in group fights with the amount of AoE and detection. So no refresh for you unless you use Plague Lord.


Also, what does expose exactly do for a slayer? You get an extra pip and damage on flintlock and guaranteed critical on the weak Go For Broke.
Does it have another effect I am not aware of?

Expose seems like it is supposed to be more impactful than it really ends up being. It offers a KD as long as the target is using an ability, which would theoretically be pretty impactful, taken out of context for how zerg vs zerg actually plays out. Though, it might not be the intention for these classes to have any part in large scale battles.

One suggestion I would make would be to provide expose on the rapier finisher for targets below 50% health. As is, you won't have much expose uptime in a big battle, and expose punishing a single target is hardly making much of a difference in a sea of CC and retaliates that directly counter any active and sustained engagement on this class, if this is to be an intended part of the Duelist's role.

IMO, expose functions better as a secondary effect in the anti-stealth kits than it does as an active standalone ability among the stealther's toolkit.

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1 hour ago, Zatch said:

Anyone know if any of my gripes have been addressed?

Health was removed from armor and resists/armor stats have been changed some what. Haven't bothered seeing if it makes much difference but I'm guessing it should help leather/squishy DPS a bit. The underlying design "issue" with the one dimensional ramp up design of the class remains. No idea why they went with this build up style combat for several classes/promos instead of making use of the "combo" system and adding more variety and utility to the limited combat bars. Hitting 1-2-3 to just spam LMB or whatever is not exciting or challenging. Worse if the effort is mostly passive and it's just LMB spam.

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On 4/12/2019 at 5:18 PM, APE said:

Health was removed from armor and resists/armor stats have been changed some what. Haven't bothered seeing if it makes much difference but I'm guessing it should help leather/squishy DPS a bit. The underlying design "issue" with the one dimensional ramp up design of the class remains. No idea why they went with this build up style combat for several classes/promos instead of making use of the "combo" system and adding more variety and utility to the limited combat bars. Hitting 1-2-3 to just spam LMB or whatever is not exciting or challenging. Worse if the effort is mostly passive and it's just LMB spam.

Both Slayer & Dirge are viable. I've been playing Duelist mainly for months and while it does have a slight ramp up time? They have good survivability, medium damage, and stuns on every 5 pip use.

Slayer excels against every melee class and is weak against ranged. Good luck catching a good Slayer as melee, and if you do? It's probably to get a dynamite on you. If you run from the Dynamite? They get a restealth, which is a re-expose and heal if using Agent.

The wind up to do damage is there with Dirge, but with Slayer it is far less so and that is due to Go For Broke! Especially in group fights or against a single target or two that are in survival tray for a free knockdown. Go For Broke! allows you to easily amass enough Slayer stacks where you can 2/3 times get a full Inconceivable! buff. Honestly, the wind up on Dirge's damage isn't terrible and is a good cost-reward considering every Impale stuns, bleeds, and functons as an execute at >50% life. Not to mention Dirge is now able to use plate armor, which I have been hoping for for awhile. Yes, Go For Broke! if attacked will knock you down, but with Escape Artist, it's a non-issue for the stacks, movement speed buff, and increased resolve. 

Duelist is in my opinion in a decent spot where it's not too strong and not too weak, it's quite balanced and hella' fun to play. The main issues are these:
1. Dirge's Impale is broken, and you either have to waste 5 pips or use the ability upwards of 5 times for it to register.
2. Dirge's & Slayer's Inconceivable! is broken like #1.
3. The way the targeting works in the game, Slayer's camera positioning is extremely awkward. You always have to aim up.
4. A lot of Slayer's finishing burst damage is from their ultimate Dynamite, Pepperbox shot was hit pretty hard in terms of damage but is still decent. I think other classes need to be brought down to Duelist's damage or Pepperbox buffed slightly to match.

Slayer may not have the bonker damage that it used to, or others do currently, but it's not far off and it comes out equal to if not on top solely due to its insane mobility, and combined with slows and the right disciplines? It helps shine.

I'd also really like Rapid Fire to be reworked, in its current state it's entirely useless, as well as Duelist's Vanguard? specialization that attempts to utilize stealth and lifesteal together. I also think a cooldown reduction to Redirect Pain for the Dirge class would much better round it out, considering it has a talent that adds a self heal to it.

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5 hours ago, Timothy said:

Both Slayer & Dirge are viable.

Good to know it can be viable, but I believe it still needs something more to complete the class, be it another utility power or combo options off a current power. Other classes/promos feel more complete on the base level without counting in disciplines or even promos in some cases.

Fixing inconceivable, go for broke, rapid fire, pip spending, etc would be nice as well considering the class doesn't have much to work with as it is. LMB could use a boost.

Where do you get "insane mobility from" out of curiosity? Assuming you mean Dynamite and maybe Disciplines (Escape Artist)? Melee classes have gap closers and or pulls, they seem to do fairly well in this department without being squishy. I'd like to see a run speed buff added to Inconceivable or instead of Dodge on Slayer. Considering the class is only for the rodent race, having them zipping around being hard to hit would fit the style. If they are going to have less damage then only ranged DPS (seems to be so), then more mobility/surviveability would be good balance.

Really hope they adjust or some how allow us to adjust the camera/aim setup. That a lone makes the class less fun to play not counting all the broken stuff. Would be nice if Exposed targets had some sort of identifier like other games have, help with singling out a target, especially if it is supposed to be a team utility debuff.

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What’s weird with the impale is it almost always works on mobs...like 90% of the time. But horribly inconsistent with PvP. Could it be a hitbox issue or maybe related to stats/buffs?

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23 hours ago, APE said:

Where do you get "insane mobility from" out of curiosity?

Slayer revolves around mobility, its entire point is not to be caught.

Dynamite resets both of your dodge pips, knocks down enemies, and gives you a free increased dodge on activation, and can be used at <50% for this reason to prioritize mobility over damage if need be (it also charges fast). Every 10 stacks of Luck rewards you another dodge pip, and hitting 10 crits is not difficult when as a Slayer on a white vessel you can just about hit the CH cap of 50% and do it beyond easily with a green vessel. 

Add on Escape Artist which increases your movement speed on every Retaliate for 8 seconds and gives you another free dodge pip every 30 seconds, on top of being invulnerable to all forms of crowd control (roots and slows included) every 45 seconds, and Slayers have pretty insane mobility compared. 

Rotating through all of these options while not back pedaling, pepperbox's stun, and Slayers become arguably the hardest class in the game to catch. I think it does a good job at it now as is, but as you say I would be open to more abilities to "round out" the class.

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On 4/20/2019 at 11:37 AM, APE said:

Really hope they adjust or some how allow us to adjust the camera/aim setup. That a lone makes the class less fun to play not counting all the broken stuff.

It used to be much better, prior to the 5.3 patch (race/class split).  There's so much wasted space now between the character and the action bar.  The pic is from a bug report in November 2017, so this one's been on the list for some time. >.<

efHILsI.jpg

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21 hours ago, oneply said:

What’s weird with the impale is it almost always works on mobs...like 90% of the time. But horribly inconsistent with PvP. Could it be a hitbox issue or maybe related to stats/buffs?

Whats funny is we've had the opposite results with impale.  Impale seems to hit quite reliably in pvp but doesn't register on mobs.

 

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The Press the Advantage talent gives Redirect Pain a heal over time. Does anyone know how the healing is determined? If I use it with 5 pips, the strength of the barrier should always be the same, and I would expect the heal to always be the same, but it isn't. Does it scale off of Support Power and/or Healing Modifier?

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On 4/21/2019 at 12:34 PM, Hyriol said:

It used to be much better, prior to the 5.3 patch (race/class split).  There's so much wasted space now between the character and the action bar.  The pic is from a bug report in November 2017, so this one's been on the list for some time. >.<

efHILsI.jpg

The camera angle is definitely the worst thing about the class right now. I hope they add the ability to customize the camera more.

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On 4/23/2019 at 7:26 AM, Arkade said:

The Press the Advantage talent gives Redirect Pain a heal over time. Does anyone know how the healing is determined? If I use it with 5 pips, the strength of the barrier should always be the same, and I would expect the heal to always be the same, but it isn't. Does it scale off of Support Power and/or Healing Modifier?

personal healing modifier

 

23 hours ago, eskie said:

The camera angle is definitely the worst thing about the class right now. I hope they add the ability to customize the camera more.

i would love love love it if we could adjust the crosshair position. it makes a huge difference

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I want to throw in here that Slayer's main burst damage Dynamite is in a really iffy state as well.

I haven't been playing for awhile so perhaps the range was nerfed, but where it is now it's pretty garbage. One dodge and you're outside of its range, which is pretty silly if you think about it. It's such an easy ultimate to counter anyway, and as long as I've been playing always has been. The fuse time on it also is really buggy as well. I've seen it deal its damage & knockdown multiple seconds after it goes off, and also before it goes off. By "go off," I mean the animation of the explosion where the hat falls to the ground.

I think Duelist really needs some love and has needed it for a long time now. Our major abilities not working has been going on for awhile.

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