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kuroaka

Is There Going To Be Player Customization?

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I am with Kuro...

 

I am not a fan of gender locking and definitely race locking. I play GW2, and I love the fact that I can pick a race I like and play any of the classes/gender I want. There is no limitation, and I am in control of my class's build. There is not a set build that "works". If I want to be an all out range warrior, I can. If I want to be all melee, I can. If I want to be tanky, I can… DPS… Support... etc. From what I have read so far about Crowfall really interested me… until this thread. I know ACE is still in development on this game, but I would love to see this game not be gender/class/race bound. 

 

GW2- also has combat style fighting, aura support/boon (Ex: Static Ring can electric people in place and add bonus speed boon for allies), and you can create your build. Plus GW2 combat style is skill based and timing and you can dodge. This game has a similar style, and that attracts me. So if this doesn't do the dumb class/gender/race lock I will check it out.

As someone that has played both Shadowbane (SB), that the Character Creation system Crowfall is using is similar to, and GW2 I can tell you straight out that GW2 is very limited compared to Shadowbane system and while the Crowfall system appears so far to be not as diverse as SB it is IMHO going to be very more diverse than GW2.

 

To give you an idea of just how diverse SB was you can play around with this old Character builder and when you do count just how many total choices you have to make to build your character:

http://pyetrek.redlem.com/

 

If you haven't played SB or Grups, which are the spiritual ancestors of the Crowfall system, then you actually don't know how limited games like GW2 truly are.

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I get that they want to make a lore filled game, but if that lore in anyway hinders or completely stops any player that would otherwise play the game. Even Zenimax knew that limiting players because of lore was a bad idea, so they allowed players to choose any race no matter what faction. Has there been any successful MMO that has gender/race locking of classes? I don't believe so; limiting a players customization and the Role Playability, that is pretty much what makes an RPG doesn't have a place in the modern gaming industry. Maybe it was acceptable decades ago, but why have it if it is going to put off players? As a player I would think devs and players a like would want as many people playing and enjoying the game as possible. So when the first thing they see is a hindering of their customization in what they want to play. They are not going to play it, thus losing players and money that would have been gained if the game didn't have the locks.

It really irks me when I read about a game that has everything that I hope for in an MMORPG, then read that there is race/gender locked classes. WHY?! You have everything going for you, yet they completely ruin it. D&D which is the starting place of all RPG games and MMORPGs has never ever locked gender, race and classes. It always allowed for the player to do what they want; this after all is what a sandbox is, is it not? Giving the player freedom to do and be what they choose to. Yet right out of the gate there is a system in place that negates this whole concept. It really makes you think, is this game really going to be what they say? If its a sandbox, why have these locks? If they have this, there are more than likely going to be more locks and restrictions that they aren't going to say. It doesn't make the best impression on a player.     

Edited by KuroAka

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I haven't thought of this game as a sandbox since more and more news has came out. They have made me curious on the game though. So Tuesday will just decide how active I am in following this.


High Fives and Good Times

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Shadowbane had gender locked races and classes, and certain classes were locked to certain races - and it didn't seem to phase anyone. In fact we had to pay more to unlock three of the races at launch..

 

And I will argue that SB had some of the best RP ever in an MMO because of the limitations on the characters. I mean, Ordo Castum Carnifex had their own freakin' graphic novel and all they could play were 4-5 Human classes and the 4-5 of the Centaurs if I recall correctly...

 

Because the players had to work within the bounds of the lore, the resulting immersion and interaction was spectacular. If you saw a Minotaur, you knew that one right there was once a slave to the Elves and he probably hated them. In fact, on many of the servers that player would be forbidden by system rules from joining a guild with Elves in it.

 

Period.

 

If there is a lore reason Centaurs cannot use magic - then the players should not have the option to build pony casters. If there is a lore reason the Elkin are all male, then the Murder Deer should all be male.

 

That said, I can see where you are coming from: player choice is a big deal and I really dig casters, I also really dig the Elkin. It does not appear right now that I can have my cake and eat it too, but I will work it out. :)

 

But players can also choose some really lore breaking stuff in the interest of being a super special snowflake.

 

The Hunger does not care how unique your character is - it will kill you. Your enemies in the world will not care how special your character is - they will kill you.

 

Band together with your people, build your character within the bounds of your race, customize yourself with stats and traits, and venture out into the world to find the runes that will make you truly powerful.


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Shadowbane had gender locked races and classes, and certain classes were locked to certain races - and it didn't seem to phase anyone. In fact we had to pay more to unlock three of the races at launch..

 

How long ago was that?......Is the IP even being used anymore? So you would sacrifice the success, playerbase and money that a game could make just because of a old way of thinking? Have you not played any MMORPG since Shadowbane shutdown? This design is only going to hinder the game. Lore should never ever be more important than player customization.

 

Just because Shadowbane did something doesn't mean this new successor should do everything that the old game did. If it does to everything then where is the growth. Who wants to play a game that is 10+ years old that hasn't changed with the times?

 

Would think that you and everyone else that is looking forward to this game wants the games life to be longer than 5 years. From launch having a big player base, and people being excited about the game. So if not having gender/race locked class is going to grant a higher possibility for the game to have a better life and more players wouldn't it be worth not having it? I would love for my friends/Guild to play this game, we love PvP and all the other things that this game is going to have is something that we have been wanting for a very long time. But sadly I can't go and tell them about this game. They are never going to play it, let alone try it do the gender/race restriction.  

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You asked for an example, I gave you one.

 

Buuuut, because you ask...

 

You might have heard about this little MMO called "World of Warcraft"... A bit of a flash in the pan, so I will understand if you've not.

 

Anyway, they had the gaul to determine that only Dwarves and Humans could be Paladins, and only Trolls and Tauren could be Shaman, or that only Night Elves and Tauren could be Druids.

 

And yes, it was absolutely horrible for them and the game was a total failure.


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How long ago was that?......Is the IP even being used anymore? So you would sacrifice the success, playerbase and money that a game could make just because of a old way of thinking? Have you not played any MMORPG since Shadowbane shutdown? This design is only going to hinder the game. Lore should never ever be more important than player customization.

 

Just because Shadowbane did something doesn't mean this new successor should do everything that the old game did. If it does to everything then where is the growth. Who wants to play a game that is 10+ years old that hasn't changed with the times?

 

Would think that you and everyone else that is looking forward to this game wants the games life to be longer than 5 years. From launch having a big player base, and people being excited about the game. So if not having gender/race locked class is going to grant a higher possibility for the game to have a better life and more players wouldn't it be worth not having it? I would love for my friends/Guild to play this game, we love PvP and all the other things that this game is going to have is something that we have been wanting for a very long time. But sadly I can't go and tell them about this game. They are never going to play it, let alone try it do the gender/race restriction.  

Just by going by your posts, you keep talking about limiting the playerbase. Well that isn't the argument to make since from day 1  the Devs have stated numerous times this is a niche game and will not be for everyone. So basing your argument on not limiting the playerbase or it will cause some people not to play is not sound and in the end will get the attention of the Mods since this has already been argued over before...multiple times and your position has lost...multiple times.

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We'll have to wait and see. The simple reality is that humans are in general one of the most adaptable classes. I fully support Centaurs and mythical lore based creatures to have their own limitations.

 

That said, there is no reason why a human cannot be a stalker/ranger or duelist (in addition to religious zealot classes and knights) or any other class that doesn't require extraordinary strength, intelligence or magical capabilities.

 

We will have to wait and see what the lore is behind each archetype I suppose. For the time being, I am content with letting the developers do their thing and fill out their vision.

Edited by Funpire

 

 

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You asked for an example, I gave you one.

 

Buuuut, because you ask...

 

You might have heard about this little MMO called "World of Warcraft"... A bit of a flash in the pan, so I will understand if you've not.

 

Anyway, they had the gaul to determine that only Dwarves and Humans could be Paladins, and only Trolls and Tauren could be Shaman, or that only Night Elves and Tauren could be Druids.

 

And yes, it was absolutely horrible for them and the game was a total failure.

But they were never gender locked, and at the time that was an acceptable thing only because at the time MMORPGs where at the infant stages. The genre and player base has grown and the games have changed to meet their audience. They have pretty much removed the race restrictions. This is not the 90's and the 00's the genre has changed. If they want to be stuck in the past so be it, it will only do more harm than good. The vast majority of people want customization, they want to play what they want to play. Forcing something on a player and limiting their customization now is not something that you do, if you want a successful game.

 

Even if they have to have some type of lore restriction. Having classes that are Race locked I think would be fine, personally that would not kill the game for me. What I really have an issue with is when the gender locking comes it to play. I do not play a female character in MMORPGs, I am not female therefor I am not having others view me as a gender that I am not. For me that is just not something that I will accept. If I am not going to be allowed to play the class that I will get the most fun out of what is the point for me to play the game if I am not going to have fun playing it?    

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Just by going by your posts, you keep talking about limiting the playerbase. Well that isn't the argument to make since from day 1  the Devs have stated numerous times this is a niche game and will not be for everyone. So basing your argument on not limiting the playerbase or it will cause some people not to play is not sound and in the end will get the attention of the Mods since this has already been argued over before...multiple times and your position has lost...multiple times.

They say that it is a niche game, but what is the playerbase that they are comfortable with having? Afterall they are making a game to make money so if they aren't making the money they thought they would have by being "niche" I see them changing their design pretty quickly. And if this has and is an issue, that only shows me that there are players that do not agree with this. Would like to know how many on these forums, are in acceptance of this design and how many are not. Maybe its not as one sided as you think, I think that there are probably more that are not in agreeance with the locking of race, class and gender. They are just not speaking up, more than likely because there are a small but very, very loud group that think they can just bully others because they have more posts on the forum and think their opinion is the only one that matters.

 

Its not having at least no gender locked classes, really going to keep you from playing the game? I would also think that if it means getting more players that would be a good thing? Maybe you just want this game to yourself? Its going to be a very boring game if there isn't many people to fight. I would also think you would want to be more friendly to new people and potential players. Being mean and keeping others from posting their thoughts and opinions does nothing but harm the game that you seem to care a lot about.   

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But they were never gender locked, and at the time that was an acceptable thing only because at the time MMORPGs where at the infant stages. The genre and player base has grown and the games have changed to meet their audience. They have pretty much removed the race restrictions. This is not the 90's and the 00's the genre has changed. If they want to be stuck in the past so be it, it will only do more harm than good. The vast majority of people want customization, they want to play what they want to play. Forcing something on a player and limiting their customization now is not something that you do, if you want a successful game.

 

Even if they have to have some type of lore restriction. Having classes that are Race locked I think would be fine, personally that would not kill the game for me. What I really have an issue with is when the gender locking comes it to play. I do not play a female character in MMORPGs, I am not female therefor I am not having others view me as a gender that I am not. For me that is just not something that I will accept. If I am not going to be allowed to play the class that I will get the most fun out of what is the point for me to play the game if I am not going to have fun playing it?    

 

You are right, because they watered down the classes to such a point that it did not matter.

 

But, what if the devs wanted an "Amazon" class? I suppose, in your version of things, having a dude in a chainmail bikini is the expected norm? Or how about the "Huntress" class from SB again - that was the gender locked class. Mostly because the Lore was cool enough to support, not a single person griped that I ever saw.

 

Most of your side of the discussion is purely about you and what you want, so pinning the argument on the desires of "the people" or that your opinion equates to "success" is a fallacy... As demonstrated here, on this forum, for this game you seem to be at deep fundamental odds with, you are a pretty solitary voice.

 

Ultimately though, thanks to free will and all that jazz, you are free to not like or play Crowfall. We won't hold it against you. :)


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But, what if the devs wanted an "Amazon" class? I suppose, in your version of things, having a dude in a chainmail bikini is the expected norm? Or how about the "Huntress" class from SB again - that was the gender locked class. Mostly because the Lore was cool enough to support, not a single person griped that I ever saw.

 

 

You then have a similar class for the opposite gender, so male version of an Amazon would be a Barbarian or Berserker. The male version of a Huntress would be Hunter or Skald.

 

 

Most of your side of the discussion is purely about you and what you want, so pinning the argument on the desires of "the people" or that your opinion equates to "success" is a fallacy... As demonstrated here, on this forum, for this game you seem to be at deep fundamental odds with, you are a pretty solitary voice.

 

Ultimately though, thanks to free will and all that jazz, you are free to not like or play Crowfall. We won't hold it against you. :)

 

 Not really, there aren't a ton of people on the these forums. So unless you are suggesting that the player base of this game is only going to be no bigger than the active people on the forums. And that everyone on these forums all thinks the same and has the same opinions, which is not the case. There is going to be more people that are going to at some point come across this game and possibly want to play it. So speaking in general terms as in "people" is not just my soul opinion. If you have played and read as much as I have when it comes to peoples opinions of games. It is very easy to pick out elements of a games design that many others that would be playing and looking for a game of this type will not care for. I think it's fair to say that the gender locked classes is going to be a pretty big issue once more people see this game.  

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Yes, you could have opposite but equal classes - but why? Why water down your lore or shoehorn in garbage (which costs dev dollars) just to promote some 18th century idea of gender equality? I mean, heaven forbid women get something in a game unique to themselves... Macho men with swords is everywhere, why can't we have a girl's only class in a game? Because it makes you uncomfortable?

 

 

 If you have played and read as much as I have when it comes to peoples opinions of games. It is very easy to pick out elements of a games design that many others that would be playing and looking for a game of this type will not care for. I think it's fair to say that the gender locked classes is going to be a pretty big issue once more people see this game.  

 

You're not one of those Internet PhD's are you? Dammit - and I was having so much fun feeling smart.

 

You must have a MobyGames profile I bet. I do, but it's probably not as cool as yours. ;)


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 it makes you uncomfortable?

 

 

Not at all, many people male or female play the opposite genders in games and its fine. I have meant some men that go full RP with a female character. To this day there is a person in my guild that even the guild leader doesn't know if they are male or female haha. And that is completely fine.

 

This is my personal view, do to me just not caring to play a female character only because I play as myself not as another person or as role play. Im a guy so I'm going to play a male character. If there is a cool class that is female only I feel a bit jipped out of content that I am not going to get to play. I don't see as having different options "watering down" anything. Lore is whatever, honestly unless there is going to be a massive amount of PvE content and there is going to be a huge story that is going to be told in the game. Lore means nothing, are you really going to care about lore when you are PvP? Probably not. So unless they are going to go out of their way to put lore into the game and has an impact to the PvP. This lore that is going to hinder player choice can be through out that window.  

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Well after reading more… I can understand the Devs point, but I would only give "specialty" classes not basic classes like Assassin or Stalker to an only race/gender. If I want to play an Elkin Templar/Assassin/ or nay basic classes then I should. The ACE devs need to then make a basic class group then a Race/Gender class that fits the lore. If they are going to really limit things it will not be as successful. I know my wife loves to play MMO's and she does not like limitation with Race/Gender/Class, but if they make a wider range of race/class then I can enjoy this game.

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When the dust settles, best builds will be well known and widely used. I wouldn't count on something different of other RPGs in this perspective.

 

If they follow what they did in Shadowbane, there should be "best builds" for a wide variety of situations.  Some will be good for 1 v 1, some for groups, some for particular kinds of groups that have special purposes (defending a keep, raiding, etc.).  In Shadowbane, usually there was a counter even to widely acknowledged "uber" builds.  The beauty of it was that the variety of options allowed players themselves to discover these strategies and tactics.  And the emphasis on group/guild/nation objectives meant everybody could do something useful for their cause.

 

I am not sure to what extent they will reward forming race specific guilds/kingdoms, but assuming this doesn't end up where all the guilds are ARAC (any race any class) the best builds could also vary depending on who your enemy is.

 

So I would be surprised if we end up with situations like that which arise in some MMOs, where everyone ends up being a cloth wearing DPS mage.

Edited by cemya

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Yes, you could have opposite but equal classes - but why? Why water down your lore or shoehorn in garbage (which costs dev dollars) just to promote some 18th century idea of gender equality? I mean, heaven forbid women get something in a game unique to themselves... Macho men with swords is everywhere, why can't we have a girl's only class in a game? Because it makes you uncomfortable?

 

 

 

You're not one of those Internet PhD's are you? Dammit - and I was having so much fun feeling smart.

 

You must have a MobyGames profile I bet. I do, but it's probably not as cool as yours. ;)

 

Why would that water it down? He said if they make an Amazon class (Female only) then make a class similar for a male… not necessarily the SAME Amazon style. Ranger/Warden that can have his own lore yet similar style as an amazon. As for the gender only class I have no issue as long as they don't limit so much. I think they need to make general classes that fit all races, but then make specialty classes that can be Gender/Race style classes. Swordsman- they had 9 schools (classes), but 2 of them were gender only. I did not mind it at all, but they still had general classes for anyone to play. They were similar to the gender only ones, but not by ANY means the same. 

 

Personally, I have a certain style of play, and if it were limited as Gender only then I would have a personal issue. I have played thieves as males and females, but I want the choice as this class is a general one. Now if there was an Amazon class I would never want to play it as a man lol. But if they had an Elementalists, Warrior, Templar, Wizard, Archer, Assassin, and etc. If there are specialties: Legionnaire, Paladin, Berserker, Amazon, Ranger, Confessor, Captain, Druid, and etc. These I can see be specialty classes that could fit a Gender/Race. Hope this clarifies where I am coming from on this.

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