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yianni

Is it me, or are leather classes worthless?

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With the amount of hitpoints and resists mail/plate classes get plus talents & discs it makes leather wearing classes pretty worthless. The damage just isn't there compared to the survivability. 

Any melee class with mail/plate really has no issues with leather wearing classes, I don't care how much range you have, there's too many gap closers, pulls, barriers, heals etc. even as an inquisitor the amount of damage to get someone down isn't there. Except fall damage... I haven't played scim druid since talents (I know surprising) but i'm assuming it has the same issue.

Not sure what the solution should be exactly, i wouldn't mind the +5 to dmg modifier back on leather plus more HP and little more resists to at least compete.

Some sort of balancing needs to happen at some point

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While I agree with you that leather +damage is undertuned compared to Mail/Plate +HP, some specific leather specs can do well against melee. Brigand, Confessor come to mind, but that's not very many, and there should be some tuning done between Mail/Plate and Leather for sure.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Phr00t said:

While I agree with you that leather +damage is undertuned compared to Mail/Plate +HP, some specific leather specs can do well against melee. Brigand, Confessor come to mind, but that's not very many, and there should be some tuning done between Mail/Plate and Leather for sure.

 

 

Confessor doesnt do that well outside of fall damage. With elementalist being so powerful you're screwed, and even without it it's still not that much damage. Not enough sustain to dish out the damage to take a melee player out before you die

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Resolving HP as ClassBaseHP+(CON*ClassModifier), and removing HP from armor would go a long way toward helping leather wearers, or at least give us a glimpse into what Blair is thinking class balance should look like.

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When you can stack treated steal in armor the HP on armor is gonna be crazy. Especially when going legendary, I can easily see people with 20k+ HP, and with weapon damage being lower the TTK is gonna be way too long. 

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Exactly, and as TTK goes up the relative value of barriers, healing, and resolve goes up, and the value of burst & CC goes down. The meta will become more about tank, sustain & physics than it already is.

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1 hour ago, yianni said:

With the amount of hitpoints and resists mail/plate classes get plus talents & discs it makes leather wearing classes pretty worthless. The damage just isn't there compared to the survivability. 

Any melee class with mail/plate really has no issues with leather wearing classes, I don't care how much range you have, there's too many gap closers, pulls, barriers, heals etc. even as an inquisitor the amount of damage to get someone down isn't there. Except fall damage... I haven't played scim druid since talents (I know surprising) but i'm assuming it has the same issue.

Not sure what the solution should be exactly, i wouldn't mind the +5 to dmg modifier back on leather plus more HP and little more resists to at least compete.

Some sort of balancing needs to happen at some point

Which leather classes do believe to be under powered? 


This post was paid for by "Mandalore for Emulated CF Community Manager 2032™". 

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Just now, Zatch said:

The current meta revolves around tanky crit immune people. Just a horrible meta in general.

Crit immune?  How much crit defense do you think people have? 

 

1 minute ago, yianni said:

The ones you've never played.

So you don't actually have anything to say?  Which classes, that are leather, are under performing in your opinion?  Is it because they are wearing leather or poor class design? 


This post was paid for by "Mandalore for Emulated CF Community Manager 2032™". 

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43 minutes ago, Gaulwa said:

What if leather classes had other advantages, such as reduced falling damage, or greater movement speed in combat (same speed as in survival mode)?
Would it help?

This would be great, not just for leather but for the game. Seemed like originally we would have more choices (wear/use any armor/weapon) but they've gone away with that. I made another topic asking what happened to Advantages & Disadvantages. Which could offer similar boosts like run speed and fall damage reduction. I'm not sure if ACE has the resources or care to make the game that interesting currently. 

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6 minutes ago, APE said:

This would be great, not just for leather but for the game. Seemed like originally we would have more choices (wear/use any armor/weapon) but they've gone away with that. I made another topic asking what happened to Advantages & Disadvantages. Which could offer similar boosts like run speed and fall damage reduction. I'm not sure if ACE has the resources or care to make the game that interesting currently. 

Last it was asked we were told they are still planning on being in, just not being worked on yet. 


This post was paid for by "Mandalore for Emulated CF Community Manager 2032™". 

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Just now, mandalore said:

Last it was asked we were told they are still planning on being in, just not being worked on yet. 

With Alpha supposedly happening last Summer and them alluding to "launch" happening this year, I question how much will make it in by launch. Making a news post about Adv/Disadv in 2017 and seeing nothing about it since is odd and I wonder what kind of in-house timeline they have to be so off in their projections.

As far as armor, they could do something like +30% DMG to leather or whatever in a no frills way to balance things. Although that probably wouldn't change much.

Rather they kept it where we could wear anything we want but each type or piece of armor came with pros/cons.

As is, there is no con to taking stronger armor. Why be a Slayer instead of a Dirge, why be an Inquisitor over a Sanctifier. Looking at the current "meta," it isn't shocking that a few builds are ideal.

I assume with high enough quality gear and organization some of the issues go away, but the top few percentile shouldn't be what they base the game around.

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Leather classes are indeed bad compared to tank classes (as the name of this thread would suggest) this issue has less to do with the damage numbers on leather classes (though they are lowish) and more to do with the relative damage of the tank variants. The current meta is: healing clerics, healing druids, tank fessors, tank champs, damage knights, damage champs. That's it. That's the whole thing... in a game with 33 specs (a few less because no FW but I'm not going to count) we are funneled into these 2 healers and 4 damage specs. Notice I say 4 damage specs and not 2 damage 2 tank specs because while the damage specs certainly do have more damage then the tank specs the tanks specs all have laughably high damage especially against leather wearers. There is no trade off for being more tanky and jumping 1 or 2 armor classes. Armor/weapon scaling on tank classes causes them to have 14k+ health while still autoing for over 1k regularly. There is simply no compensation in the base kits of the leather classes (or on their armor)  to make up for the fact they have 15%+ less mitigations and many thousands less health. For rolling into a tank spec there should be a flat damage REDUCTION not an increase like the tank fessor who gets 20% base damage increase for going tank (sure they have to go melee range but the whole plate armor thing offsets that they don't need that damage boost). The knight and the dps champ are a tad more balanced in the damage to tank ratio, the damage champ is squshier and gets high damage the knight is tankier but gets lower damage, awesome we got some balance. The problem comes with the tank champ and tank fessor. They are tanky enough to not even be in groups for large siege fights while still doing equal or greater damage then some damage specs. If people were actually TANKS when going tank spec instead of these hybrid abominations that require no healing while doing fairly high damage maybe we would have some more class variance. Why do damage when i can be 100x tankier and do 95% of the damage if not more...Take these issues and add the fact most fights are now sieges where we are funneled into tight spaces where tanks have an advantage over squshies by virtue of survive ability (oh I almost forgot, you dont do damage while you're dead incase that was unclear...) and we have this lopsided tank meta where even though we are all tank speced damage toons or damage speced tank toons we can still drop healers and ultimately outlast our opponents in a confined space while doing large AoE damage. Ace make leather great again... but please no 80m ranger rapid fire one shots...

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7 minutes ago, blazzen said:

+1

 

1 hour ago, VaMei said:

Resolving HP as ClassBaseHP+(CON*ClassModifier), and removing HP from armor would go a long way toward helping leather wearers, or at least give us a glimpse into what Blair is thinking class balance should look like.

I don't think con should be the only source of HP.  I vote to leave some on armor, let the rest happen as you level your vessel (with quality determine HP gain) and then continue to allow con to also give some.  An all or nothing only one source is a bad idea imo. 

 


This post was paid for by "Mandalore for Emulated CF Community Manager 2032™". 

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1 minute ago, mandalore said:

 

I don't think con should be the only source of HP.  I vote to leave some on armor, let the rest happen as you level your vessel (with quality determine HP gain) and then continue to allow con to also give some.  An all or nothing only one source is a bad idea imo. 

 

What I suggested was to remove the 375 / 750 HP bonus that mail /plate gets but leave the HP on the treated steel/leather and the rings/scales/plates/etc and replace it with something like 1.25%/2.5% "armor bonus" like you get in talents. 

Basically give mitigation bonus to mail/plate instead of more hitpoints. It's harder to equate hitpoints to final damage/healing modifier than it is mitigation.

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2 hours ago, yianni said:

With the amount of hitpoints and resists mail/plate classes get plus talents & discs it makes leather wearing classes pretty worthless. The damage just isn't there compared to the survivability. 

Any melee class with mail/plate really has no issues with leather wearing classes, I don't care how much range you have, there's too many gap closers, pulls, barriers, heals etc. even as an inquisitor the amount of damage to get someone down isn't there. Except fall damage... I haven't played scim druid since talents (I know surprising) but i'm assuming it has the same issue.

Not sure what the solution should be exactly, i wouldn't mind the +5 to dmg modifier back on leather plus more HP and little more resists to at least compete.

Some sort of balancing needs to happen at some point

Not to mention the sheer cost for a leather piece is significantly more than for a scale or plate piece then add in the use of "motherlodes" and other items from skinning compared to quarrying or mining, even grave digging has more results. I know that the devs are looking at this but no idea where they are into the investigation and not sure if they when it will be addressed.

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