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yianni

Is it me, or are leather classes worthless?

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19 minutes ago, mandalore said:

I don't think con should be the only source of HP.  I vote to leave some on armor, let the rest happen as you level your vessel (with quality determine HP gain) and then continue to allow con to also give some.  An all or nothing only one source is a bad idea imo. 

I'm actually thinking that Class should be the major driver for HP, accounting for 50-70% of your HP total, and class modified Con as a secondary driver that's within the player's discretion. If it's done right (yeah, I know), choosing between Str, Dex, Int, & Con should actually be a choice for most classes. For now most, if not all, classes dump all their points into a single stat because the others do little or nothing for them.

Whatever happens, having both HP and damage mitigation coming from armor is redundant to my thinking. Having both HP and damage mitigation scale upward from cloth to leather, mail, & plate, without an associated cost, just adds insult to injury for squishes that don't bring more damage or flexibility to the field.

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5 minutes ago, VaMei said:

I'm actually thinking that Class should be the major driver for HP, accounting for 50-70% of your HP total, and class modified Con as a secondary driver that's within the player's discretion. If it's done right (yeah, I know), choosing between Str, Dex, Int, & Con should actually be a choice for most classes. For now most, if not all, classes dump all their points into a single stat because the others do little or nothing for them.

Whatever happens, having both HP and damage mitigation coming from armor is redundant to my thinking. Having both HP and damage mitigation scale upward from cloth to leather, mail, & plate, without an associated cost, just adds insult to injury for squishes that don't bring more damage or flexibility to the field.

In SB your class contributed to your base Hp.  The tankier classes got more HP per level.  I'd like to see that happen again.  The Champion should obviously have more hp than the fessor.  They recently boosted con to give barrier bonus (flat amount) and block bonus (a scaling %) so having con give too much per gain will just add to the problem of tank metas.  I still maintain that class/level should give some, con itself should give some and armor should give some (not nearly what is it though). 


This post was paid for by "Mandalore for Emulated CF Community Manager 2032™". 

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1 hour ago, gracen said:

Not to mention the sheer cost for a leather piece is significantly more than for a scale or plate piece then add in the use of "motherlodes" and other items from skinning compared to quarrying or mining, even grave digging has more results. I know that the devs are looking at this but no idea where they are into the investigation and not sure if they when it will be addressed.

Yea getting leather is a pain in the ass and it costs MORE to make the leather pieces than the others.

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1 minute ago, moneda said:

I feel like my Scim Druid can kill anything that isn't a Champion, with varying degrees of difficulty.

Maybe myrm and knight would give trouble, and anyone with elementalist. 

Edited by yianni

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2 hours ago, gracen said:

Not to mention the sheer cost for a leather piece is significantly more than for a scale or plate piece then add in the use of "motherlodes" and other items from skinning compared to quarrying or mining, even grave digging has more results. I know that the devs are looking at this but no idea where they are into the investigation and not sure if they when it will be addressed.

I think that what might be happening here is that Ace is looking at all things harvested as being equally valued, and calling that balanced. At least for now.

When a hammer jockey beats on a rock, he gets stone & dust, and minerals if it's a ML; the stone is the least valuable thing he gets. A rock hound gets ore, dust, & gems from MLs. Again, ore is the bad thing.

As a Skinner, I get hide & meat with some bone & blood. I'm betting that for raw numbers skinning is competitive with the other gatherers, but I rarely care about having more meat. I'm swamped with it! On my most recent skinning spree, I took 19 stacks of hide and 13 stacks of meat. Meat is useful, but not when it's 40% of my haul.

Tree huggers get logs, dust, heartwood, bees wax, grubs... pine cones... and apples, dear god the apples... ok, they get some trash, but I don't think it's 40%.

Edited by VaMei

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9 minutes ago, VaMei said:

I think that what might be happening here is that Ace is looking at all things harvested as being equally valued, and calling that balanced. At least for now.

When a hammer jockey beats on a rock, he gets stone & dust, and minerals if it's a ML; the stone is the least valuable thing he gets. A rock hound gets ore, dust, & gems from MLs. Again, ore is the bad thing.

As a Skinner, I get hide & meat with some bone & blood. I'm betting that for raw numbers skinning is competitive with the other gatherers, but I rarely care about having more meat. I'm swamped with it! On my most recent skinning spree, I took 19 stacks of hide and 13 stacks of meat. Meat is useful, but not when it's 40% of my haul.

Tree huggers get logs, dust, heartwood, bees wax, grubs... pine cones... and apples, dear god the apples... ok, they get some trash, but I don't think it's 40%.

Haha, I loved the harvestor nicknames but you didn't have one for the Skinner.

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I agree with a lot of what's being said here, there definitely needs to be some benefit to wearing the lighter armor. Getting the health bonus off of the heavier armor would be a start, and while I don't think bonus movement speed would be a good change I do believe negating the stamina cost of sprinting would. As it is now most people don't even bother with sprinting in fights because it becomes a choice of moving SLIGHTLY faster or having retaliate available. Many of the classes that are stuck with leather armor would benefit from some added mobility but with CC being thrown around so much giving up a retaliate for a little separation would just get you killed.

I know there are already talents deep in the armor trees to help this, but the values they give are a non-factor and it really should be a bigger part of the base stats on the armor itself.

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51 minutes ago, KatzeWeiss said:

I agree with a lot of what's being said here, there definitely needs to be some benefit to wearing the lighter armor. Getting the health bonus off of the heavier armor would be a start, and while I don't think bonus movement speed would be a good change I do believe negating the stamina cost of sprinting would. As it is now most people don't even bother with sprinting in fights because it becomes a choice of moving SLIGHTLY faster or having retaliate available. Many of the classes that are stuck with leather armor would benefit from some added mobility but with CC being thrown around so much giving up a retaliate for a little separation would just get you killed.

I know there are already talents deep in the armor trees to help this, but the values they give are a non-factor and it really should be a bigger part of the base stats on the armor itself.

Little extra in combat speed wont really help or sprinting because thats just horrible. Again too many gap closers and pulls that are 30m. As a confessor i cant even dodge when i use my Q, i just walk around invis and try to LoS to gtfo. Druids cant even move when they use their Q haha

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There are many problems with Leather compared to Metals.  You don't have to kill a ML or node to harvest them.  When harvesting anything other than leather and you get ganked its at least with 100% of your health.  As a leather guy, you take damage from mobs or are lower on resources if you pulled too many mobs trying to take advantage of Bene Harvest.

Armor wearers do pretty much the same if not more damage as the DPS classes and have Health+Mitigation advantages factored in.  It takes 3-4 players to take on a Cleric. It takes someone turning and looking at a leather wearer before they are melted.

Plate/Mail have 35-45% mitigation with 13k+ health.  So this basically is like giving them 25k health.
Leather has 24% mitigation top with 9-10k health.  Basically 2.5 x weaker than an armor wearer.


"If your not failing sometimes, you aren't growing.  Without growth, there can never be greatness."

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On 2/18/2019 at 5:58 PM, mandalore said:

Which leather classes do believe to be under powered? 

I would say:

Duelist Slayer - because poor balance and design.

Ranger - because too many bugs and static gameplay

Confessors - Thay can be really efficient, but leather ones are difficult to play > poor design.

 

That's all the leathers I have tested so far, and I am not impressed.
I have seen assassins hold their own thanks to high DPS and Life leech, but Duelist and Rangers just seems to fold as soon as anyone target them.
From my experience as Duelist, Dirge has so much more staying power.

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5 hours ago, Gaulwa said:

I'vee seen assassins hold their own thanks to high DPS and Life leech

All 3 assassins lines live and die on their ability to pick fights they can win, attack with surprise, and avoid or evade fights they can't win. If you even see an assassin, odds are he thinks he can win.

I'd wager the most assassins you see are running Blackguard and wearing mail. Beyond the better armor, Blood Price & Poison Paradise work together to give some limited sustain.

Cutthroats are ok if your target has low health and you can nuke them out of stealth, if you can stay behind them, or if they let you get back into stealth so you can do it again. After the last wipe, this build was popular since no one had good gear.

Vandals want to Cheap Shot, lay down dots, CC & get back into stealth, then watch while the dots do their thing. Rinse & repeat until it's over. Yaga's Gift isn't bad if you press an attack you shouldn't have, but I'd trade it for better armor in a second.

Neither cutthroats or vandals are great against experienced players with high health. High skill players can make them look good, but high skill targets will shut them down.

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I find Blackguard to be the generally better Assassin promo and it is all about that extra bit of tankiness and sustain combined with provocateur disc to stay in fights longer. Only thing I have a hard time with is classes that can trivially prevent my stealth disengagement (heavy/long dots)

 

I haven’t really tried Vandal though I eye from time to time.

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Vandals are pretty much semi screwed over due to how retaliate works ATM.  Their chain of CC never takes effect cause Retaliate is up sooner than they can reapply the next CC. So either Yags gift is on a too long CD or retaliate needs a change imo... 

Regardless..

Leather users are rather punished compared to especially their plate counterparts.  The damage bonus they get is pretty much negated vs a plate user, where as the leather doesn’t really hold up against the damage of which any the plate using clases can toss at them.


Huginn ok Muninn, fljúga hverjan dag, Jörmungrund yfir; óumk ek of Hugin,, at hann aftr né komi-t, þó sjámk meir of Munin

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First they need to reduce the amount of hide that is needed to make the set even to the amount of ore needed to make a chain/plate set.

Secondly they need to sort out the durability loss that skinners get vs the non durability loss that the miners don't receive, perhaps a passive buff on top of the skinning tree that greatly reduces durability loss while fighting animals (npc only).

 After that they can maybe play around with the advantages/disadvantages, id like to see plate wearer be slower in movement and in weapon swing speed as leather wearers should be more agile.

With 5.8.4 and the changes to certain leather working recipes being moved to basic crafting, leatherworking could become redundant as its just not worth it in its current state.

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On 2/24/2019 at 6:10 AM, Fefner said:

Secondly they need to sort out the durability loss that skinners get vs the non durability loss that the miners don't receive, perhaps a passive buff on top of the skinning tree that greatly reduces durability loss while fighting animals (npc only).

As a full time Skinner, durability is not a problem I've run into. I was one of the 1st players that the guild put into greens after the last wipe. I'm still using all the same gear with more than 50% durability on everything.

Granted, about half of my skinning time is spent with dedicated combat players killing the mobs, meaning I don't need to shift out of survival stance. Still, the other half of the time I do my own killing.

Edited by VaMei

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