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Vlaana

Ranger feedback

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I copy my post here, to keep track of bugs on ranger.
Feel free to add yours in comment. I will add them in the post and copy/past this post each time the dev ask for a feedback on live server minus the correction they perform if any.

Here is a list of the problems for the archer class. It is probably easier to write a list about what is working but anyway.

Character sheet - green vessel (haft-elf):
https://imgur.com/kinW1Js

Major disciplines: Mole Hunter and Sharpshooter
Minor disciplines: Uniform leather, Glass Cannon, Demon's Pact

Passive used in this build (4):
Way of the leader
Uniform leather (+100 AP)
Glass Canon
Gleeful Strike

My data is given with the discipline above. Glass canon build with no damage ūü§ó

Equipment:
Blue bow (damages 41-57)
Crushing blue quiver (damages 47-69)

Stat problem:
Endurance regeneration: does not work well, either does not work or you loss the regeneration as soon as 3 food pips are lost.
Attack power: 250 attack power for a damage dealer when tanks got twice that (pitfighter tanks got 700 AP).

Capacities problem:
Charged attack (basic attack): hitting 600/700 damages on leather for 2s of charge when the arrow is not lost in the void.
Just to compare auto attack from druid(stormcaller)/assa deal 400/500 on leather so basically with 3+ auto in 2s around 1200/1500 damages.
Void definition: sometimes (usually when lagging badly) your arrow-charging animation will stop, but the bar will remain. When you release after this happens, you don't shoot. I've also seen the same thing happen with the animation staying but the bar disappearing. Both instances result in no arrow being fired. I don't have evidence of this since I only recently started recording this game but in a few days I may. @Samulus

Double shots (talent): does not work, as soon as it trigger the next charged attack do not deal 50% more damage.
https://imgur.com/DcSlyhH

Rapide fire: most of the time no arrows are hitting the target but the skill is on CD.

Barrage: no damage (between 50  to 140), no range (35m), limited to 5 pleople and you cannot really move as you would like.
This spell is upgraded via the talent "withering barrage" to remove 20% of damage BONUS (so basically nothing).
The area of effect does not work when you try to hit targets on wall. Moreover, the positionning circle is not visible on slope or in building.

Sweep + disengage: too long, the disengage should be instant.

Traps: should not explode when it times out. The triggering zone seems too short and the trap can be seen by ennemies.

Suppression shot: People should not be able to retaliate on this spell. I mean it is a suppress, isn't it?

Forest Step (Warden) - Often does not connect the first hit or second hit on moving targets due to disjointed distance to target (sometimes you teleport onto their head lol). Awesome to use when they are retreating, but it's not reliable for anything other than a teleport right now... It would be really nice if we could reliably connect that second hit since there's a snare on it.   @Samulus

Ultimate: charging too fast.  Create, a second ultimate more oriented toward damage instead of defense to have a real choice.
This point is also true for a lot of classes (confessor, ...).


Discipline bugs:
Get 'em (Mole hunter discipline): the root spell does not root.
Passive "all clear" (sharpshooter discipline): no ennemies within 30 meters... (should I say we only have 34 meters...), to be tested
Passive "Call of fire" (archer) do not move, charged bow twice then you got a buff. Ho sry, the fight is already moving otherwhere and you only got a poorly made socksty range. Does not work with high tension compound bowÔĽŅ. It only procs and makes the sound but doesnt do anything. However, it works fine for recurve bow. @Darkstar412
Passive "Glee ful strike": this passive should increase your damage by 10%.
https://imgur.com/b6K7S19
The second hit is without passive so the first hit should be around 810.


Equipment problem:
The exotic arrow abilities never trigger (Is it part of the problem described below?).
The leather stuff bonus damage is utterly pathetic compare to the survivibility given by mail or plaque equipment.

Passive talent problem:
Too many useless passive talent for the archer specialization (power efficiency, support power) and disparity between physical or elemental penetration. The passive talent tree for weapon sucks as hell.

However the power efficiency is mandatory for the warden specialization as there is no viable option to regenerate endurance other than critical hits. @Samulus

 

Conclusion on the ranger:
Wood-elf is mandatory because of the dodge range and is the only race that could manage the Fae mobility.
Warden is almost mandatory because it is using chain mail so 15k HP and high resistance and has the same range as an archer.
On archer, Sharpshooter or Arcane archer discipline are mandatory to have damages other than piercing and the only root working in this game.
Quiver or basic arrow are custarded (50% of the class damage does not exist).
Currently archer is probably the worst class of the game.

5.8.4 correction:

Range: 34 meters, pathetic range to manage kitting when a fae or wood elf just glish/tp on you. This range is not enough to defend a fort or Keep.
Archer should be able to reach 60 meters range.

My mistake:

I probably found why the ranger damage suck so hard.
The ranged damage given in my character sheet does not care about my quiver or my basic arrow.
https://imgur.com/fbJNEh2
I did a test using basic arrow (damage 14-21) on dummy and got the following damages:
https://imgur.com/UFafpLP
Now, the same test by using my crushing blue quiver (damage 46-69)
https://imgur.com/zwWFS5m
By the way, the quiver does not have a durability bar, is it a bug? Is it part of the problem?
This bug make us loss more than 50% damages as my quiver got a damage range higher than my bow.

Here is my mistake because it's the following problem: perception versus reality. The archer basic attack formula is : 227 - 307 + 2.67*Weapon damage.
Roughly, 50% of your damages are flat and 50% are provided by your weapons (50% from your bow and the rest by your quiver). You quiver can only contribute for roughly 25% of your damage.

Perception: switching from basic arrow to blue seems to be huge gap, going from 14-21 to 46-69 adding the bow you basically increase your damage range by 50%.
Reality: The following calculation is basic and do not consider attack power or damage modifier (dunno if it applies before mitigation or after). I also removed the penetration from weapon and the bonus provided by discipline. The mail stuff also provide (51% armor 1% higher than the cap but it marginal for the calculation without the penetration tree).
If someone has the white quiver damage to improve the comparison.

  MIN damage MAX damage Armor penetration
(ex: crushing)
Armor mitigation
(ex: crushing)
Comments    
White Bow 32.00 46.00 0.00        
Blue bow 41.00 57.00 0.00        
Basic arrow 14.00 21.00 0.00        
Blue quiver 50.00 72.00 0.00        
White plate armor       0.19      
Blue plate armor       0.31      
White mail armor       0.14      
Blue mail armor       0.22      
Passive tree     0.15 0.18      
Talents       0.11      
               
               
Basic attack calculation formula 227 - 307 + 2.67*Weapon damage        
  227.00 307.00 2.67        
               
Calculation (White on White)     Comments Calculation (Blue on blue)     Comments
White bow 32.00 46.00   Blue bow 41.00 57.00  
basic arrow 14.00 21.00   Blue quiver 50.00 72.00  
basic attack output 349.82 485.89 Before mitigation basic attack output 469.97 651.43 Before mitigation
               
Without armor penetration tree for attacker      
Without armor penetration tree for attacker
     
Output damage on white plate 181.91 252.66 After mitigation Output damage on blue plate 187.99 260.57 After mitigation
Output damage on white mail 199.40 276.96   Output damage on blue mail 230.29 319.20  
               
With armor penetration tree for attacker      
With armor penetration tree for attacker
     
Output damage on white plate 234.38 325.55   Output damage on blue plate 258.48 358.29  
Output damage on white mail 251.87 349.84   Output damage on blue mail 300.78 416.92  
               
               
Ratio between white/blue equipements in percentage          
  MIN damage MAX damage Comments        
Without armor penetration tree for attacker              
Gain damage on plate with blue stuff 3.34 3.13 %        
Gain damage on mail with blue stuff 15.49 15.25 %        
               
With armor penetration tree for attacker              
Gain damage on plate with blue stuff 10.28 10.06 %        
Gain damage on mail with blue stuff 19.42 19.17 %        

Basically, the problem is that your damage output stay almost the same if you ennemy use the same level of gear. However, the HP increasing so fast with mail or plate than you need more arrow to shut down an ennemy so you got the feeling to have no damage. This feeling is amplified by all the defensive discipline, healing , the ultimate used as candy and the fact that ranger only got one useful skill "rapid fire". The lack of attack power in the talent tree, etc...

 

 

Edited by Vlaana

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Wow, amen.

I figured there was something wrong with quiver aswell. Ranged feels underpowered because of this and the double shot not working.

I’m playing brigand. Melee damage is oke. Pretty good against other melee. And its because the ultimate is so fast that I manage to survive a few fights once in a while. So i’m not complaining about that.

The flare (anti-stealth) arrow is great and so are the traps. I think its good that they remove stealth if they are actually triggered by a player. But it’s broken that bombs remove stealth (explosion) when they expire. 

I think the class would be great if they fixed/adjusted the points you mentioned. 

Great work! They should give you a award for this work!

 

Edited by Lowlander

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I only have a few to add, your write-up is fantastic:

Forest Step (Warden Skill) - Often does not connect the first hit or second hit on moving targets due to disjointed distance to target (sometimes you teleport onto their head lol). Awesome to use when they are retreating, but it's not reliable for anything other than a teleport right now... It would be really nice if we could reliably connect that second hit since there's a snare on it. I can provide evidence later when I get home. 

Ultimate - You can currently use the skill when it is half charged. I don't know if this is intended or if the duration is reduced when you do. Maybe someone here knows better?

Bow Auto Attack - Sometimes (usually when lagging badly) your arrow-charging animation will stop, but the bar will remain. When you release after this happens, you don't shoot. I've also seen the same thing happen with the animation staying but the bar disappearing. Both instances result in no arrow being fired. I don't have evidence of this since I only recently started recording this game but in a few days I may. 

23 hours ago, Vlaana said:

Passive talent problem:
Too many useless passive talent for the archer class (power efficiency, support power) and disparity between physical or elemental penetration. The passive talent tree suck as hell. This seems to be true for others classes too.

Just one minor comment, I won't argue that support power being available is definitely niche (support ranger with support discs seems like it would be lackluster), but that power efficiency node + gleeful strike are some of the only tools that Warden has to combat bad Endurance regen. It SUCKED when gleeful strike was broken at the beginning of this campaign. I can see how you wouldn't need it on archer since a LOT of the bow skills don't use any kind of resource at all.

I say all of that above to say that I think they need to reevaluate Ranger power usage in general. Discipline powers, racial powers on active bar, and Melee tray powers use Endurance. Ranged tray attacks don't seem to use any most of the time (I believe flare shot does, some of the little utility knick-knack skills do too). Other weird uses include moves like Dagger Spin that only use endurance once, and then it's just a really long chain skill. As it is now though, other than having gleeful strikes slotted and getting crits in Melee tray, we don't really have any reliable options in terms of generating endurance other than doing so passively in the survival tray. Combine this with the fact that skills don't seem to have a logical line throughout in terms of what uses and what doesn't use Endurance, and it's easy to run out of Endurance and have no backup (disengage uses a ton, usually your only option is to roll/blink away and rapid fire with the bow until you get some Endurance back slowly). 

It's not bad the way it is, but it could use some polish for sure. There's a very wide "hole" for the opportunity of making Endurance interesting on the Ranger; Imagine picking a Ranger subclass and having the Endurance bar mechanics change to fit the style. 

Examples:
Warden: Leeching Shafts - Return a small amount of endurance when connecting a shot with a foe (to encourage dancing in between trays) 
Archer: Power Strain - Auto attacks can now be charged an additional second, but will use endurance after 2 seconds. Damage and range is greatly increased per endurance point used, to a maximum of (insert gameplay-engaging percentage here) at 3 seconds. 
Brigand: Banditry - Gain half of the endurance used from placing a trap if you strike with a melee auto-attack 1 second (or whatever) after it deals damage to a foe. 

Edited by Samulus
spelling

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Ok I did add your return in my post.

@Lowlander

21 hours ago, Lowlander said:

Ranged feels underpowered because of this and the double shot not working.

Honestly as the passive "GÔĽŅlee ful strike" give more than expected on all your capacities both are balancing each other.

@Samulus

I think the two charges on the ultimate is deliberate.

I did not play the warden enough to have feedback on it, so yours are welcome.

I agree with you that endurance management is really different depending on the specialization chosen.
However, I don't understand how the support power can be valuable on ranger.

Edited by Vlaana

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Maybe im missing something but i cannot get the call for fire passive to work with high tension compound bow. It procs and makes the sound just doesnt do anything. Works fine for recurve bow.

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10 hours ago, Samulus said:

Ultimate - You can currently use the skill when it is half charged. I don't know if this is intended or if the duration is reduced when you do. Maybe someone here knows better?

I think that's just a general feature for all ultimates. I can use Invincible Warrior on my champion when it looks like it's only just over half-charged, but I believe that just means you have a second charge. It's intentional.

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19 hours ago, Darkstar412 said:

Maybe im missing something but i cannot get the call for fire passive to work with high tension compound bow. It procs and makes the sound just doesnt do anything. Works fine for recurve bow.

Hi Darkstar412,

I added you problem in my post.

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