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Balance: 2.5mill | Order & Chaos: 500k

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Is it even realistically possible to lose? On paper, perhaps, if everyone in Balance stopped caring and the other factions  capped and held, but...

I'm pretty sure this is not going to be uncommon occurrence at live regardless of how many catch up points can be gotten. When the mega competitive 200 person guilds show up and sit on a side, I can't see how any amount of attrition will matter.

Perhaps there needs to be some "Finger of God" moments that shake things up?

Edited by Tooltip

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1 hour ago, Tooltip said:

Is it even realistically possible to lose? On paper, perhaps, if everyone in Balance stopped caring and the other factions  capped and held, but...

I'm pretty sure this is not going to be uncommon occurrence at live regardless of how many catch up points can be gotten. When the mega competitive 200 person guilds show up and sit on a side, I can't see how any amount of attrition will matter.

Perhaps there needs to be some "Finger of God" moments that shake things up?

This is currently working as intended.

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To be clear are you calling the current balance guilds 200 man guilds?


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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Emergent gameplay is a very dramatic form of sandbox.  It has extreme potential for generating strong communities, lasting rivalries, and alliances.    Unfortunately though, this requires developers to be shown worst case scenerios that must be mechanically punished addressed through game design.  ACE makes no excuses and takes responsibility for what is going on.  
 

jtoddcoleman stated that they are aware of this in news and announcements.  I recommend glancing over some of his points to see how this will shape the future reward structures of campaigns.

 

Edited by Oaths

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10 hours ago, mandalore said:

To be clear are you calling the current balance guilds 200 man guilds?

No, we will make it 400 man guilds.


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10 hours ago, Oaths said:

Emergent gameplay is a very dramatic form of sandbox.  It has extreme potential for generating strong communities, lasting rivalries, and alliances.    Unfortunately though, this requires developers to be shown worst case scenerios that must be mechanically punished addressed through game design.  ACE makes no excuses and takes responsibility for what is going on.  
 

jtoddcoleman stated that they are aware of this in news and announcements.  I recommend glancing over some of his points to see how this will shape the future reward structures of campaigns.

 

You are correct that bad player behavior is addressed through game design. That is something we can agree on.


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@Oaths thanks, I was so excited when I saw that thread. Alas, it's a dumpster fire of accusations and politics. No headway was made on the issue at hand and so now it's locked.

My point is that CF is a competitive PvP game and we just got a taste of how mega guilds are gonna play it (@mandalore: no, dude, I'm not saying Balance is a mega guild, I'm saying when it goes live, the big no lifers are gonna step in and this will be a daily special. Just look at pretty much any CPvP game out there (Atlas, Conan, Ark, etc.). If folks think this was bad, there are guilds out there that will school Winterblades)

 I just don't know how more carrots are going to solve this issue. What happened (it seems) is that the other factions lost the will to fight. That's a huge problem. It's huge. It ends games and it's not just the players. Not everyone is part of a large well organized guild. Not everyone has the time to spend farming and staying up and the massive investment it takes to do anything in this game. That's a big problem because the 1,000 people who do are not going to be enough to support this game for 5-10 years. This is why PvP brackets were made, why millions of dollars are invested in "intelligent" match making, ELO rating exist, leagues, etc. It's because even though I like basket ball (I don't really), I don't want to play 1v1 or 10v10 with NBA players. I'll just stand there and watch them dunk.

So how is this mediated? I dunno that multi vector rewards is enough to stop this from happening and motivate players who are being crushed to keep fighting. I did like the suggestion of the game assigning players to factions (a la match making in most games) would help break up hegemonies and prestacking but I dunno

Edited by Tooltip
Typo

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12 hours ago, mandalore said:

To be clear are you calling the current balance guilds 200 man guilds?

I think he's referring to guilds that haven't joined the fun yet.

I hesitate to even invoke the name, for fear of them appearing in numbers beyond measure, but if G***swarm or the like moves to CF, people will learn the true meaning of a zerg. They would have no need of siege engines. The mountains of their dead would crest our walls, with no end to the horde in sight.

Edited by VaMei

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27 minutes ago, Tooltip said:

I don't want to play 1v1 or 10v10 with NBA players. I'll just stand there and watch them dunk.

 

It's closer to fighting a 2v10 naked versus NBA players in full gear and sponsors. Not only do you get steamrolled, but everyone is watching your humiliation on primetime television and mocking you for it.

When you don't have the numbers, you don't have the gear, you don't have the full knowledge of game systems exploits (like switching gear and runes in combat to adapt, or using ballistae as an offensive siege weapon... things that are not intended. And I'm not even talking about blatant hacks and real exploits I've seen)...

Without gear, numbers or knowledge, it's even harder to learn and get gear as you are constantly fighting an uphill battle. It's no wonder people give up.

There are games that after each round reward the loser with some sort of buffs until they win. As example, Risk Legacy does that, the loser of the previous campaign gets to pick which nation and starting position he wants. So if a good player has brought one of the game's faction to a leading position, the worst player gets to play from that leading position if he wants to during the next game.
It's kind of the same as auto-balancing during Counter-Strike matches.

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9 minutes ago, VaMei said:

I think he's referring to guilds that haven't joined the fun yet.

I hesitate to even invoke the name, for fear of them appearing in numbers beyond measure, but if G***squad or the like moves to CF, people will learn the true meaning of a zerg. They would have no need of siege engines. The mountains of their dead would crest our walls, with no end to the horde in sight.

Yea that’s why I was asking.  The something aweful guys are the largest gaming community in the world and they are a force to be reckoned with.  Just wanted to make sure the OP wasn’t referring to a 2 guild alliance with 50-60 bros as something akin to what goon can field. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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30 minutes ago, mandalore said:

Yea that’s why I was asking.  The something aweful guys are the largest gaming community in the world and they are a force to be reckoned with.  Just wanted to make sure the OP wasn’t referring to a 2 guild alliance with 50-60 bros as something akin to what goon can field. 

Nope, not at all. In fact, when I posted I had no information on the size and composition of the winning side. In fact, it doesn't matter. The numbers are what they are. Whether it's 3 people or 300. There's a problem here. And what I saw from the devs is "we need a better carrot". I don't think that even an ambrosia carrot will make a difference.

Folks didn't stop playing because they thought the reward wasn't worth the effort. They stopped because they were demoralized given the current system and mechanics. That's not something more shines can fix. That's a design issue, not a loot / reward issue (though yes, loot/reward is design as well)

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6 minutes ago, Tooltip said:

Nope, not at all. In fact, when I posted I had no information on the size and composition of the winning side. In fact, it doesn't matter. The numbers are what they are. Whether it's 3 people or 300. There's a problem here. And what I saw from the devs is "we need a better carrot". I don't think that even an ambrosia carrot will make a difference.

Folks didn't stop playing because they thought the reward wasn't worth the effort. They stopped because they were demoralized given the current system and mechanics. That's not something more shines can fix. That's a design issue, not a loot / reward issue (though yes, loot/reward is design as well)

It's more than a design issue, its a gumption issue too.  HoA/Winterblades represent most (not all) of the most active players NA (don't wanna offend the EU) and this game 100% rewards you for playing more.  We have the best gear, sometimes by multiple tiers, because we farm the most.  We have the best vessels because we farm the most.  Combine that with bigger larger than most guilds and its hard, if not impossible to defeat.  No amount of shiny is going to make the people who barely play now suddenly triple their available playtime.  If they make it so only a certain amount of any % gets the shiny I can assure you the people who have quit now won't be in the top 20 then.  This isn't a problem of loot, this is about some guilds who want to put in the mountain of time it takes to be at the top winning and other people going "nope, custard that. I got poorly made socks I'd rather do!".

Edited by mandalore

40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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I agree. And this is bad news for the longevity of such a game. "It's lonely at the top" is not just a saying.

Conan Exiles is a great recent example of exhaustive predation that seems somewhat analogous to the current situation. Large guilds crush smaller ones and solo-duo players to the point where they don't want to play anymore. That leaves large guilds with no one to fight. I guarantee that Balance is bored AF right now because there's no one to fight... in a fighting game.

Restarting the game, or wiping, or whatever is not an answer because it doesn't address all the points you brought up.

So in faction war, this will happen constantly, and in Dregs (GvG), why would I ever stick around if Guild X enters the match? I'll just stop, or find a different one / not invite Guild X. Maaaaybe the really big guilds will set up matches and go at it, but that's again, not enough to sustain a game long term. You need numbers.

You need people to have fun playing your game whether they win or lose. It's seriously easy to just stop logging in and pick up one of 10 other games just waiting to be clicked. I think there are solutions, but I'm not sure what they are exactly. And I'd like to see ACE brainstorm more options. Catch up mechanics only work if the losing side isn't crushed (demoralized) and can "rally" which is not common at all. Better carrots are fine if they're willing to rally but don't see the point. But you need to avoid the situation where your opponent pushes back from the keyboard and says "why the heck would I spend another minute fighting this fight? Lemme just load up X until things change".

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I really think it'll end up with the big well geared guilds in the Dregs building coalitions with each other and medium up-and-coming guilds, while small guilds and solo players are in Factions.

If the incentives are there, an organized guild that gains a critical mass of geared players, and has the ability to dominate a faction campaign, should have their eyes on moving into the Dregs. They may kneel before even moving into their fist campaign, but that needs to be more rewarding than staying in Factions.

It'll be a bumpy ride until the player base is large enough to support both models simultaneously, but once we get there I think things will smooth out.

Edited by VaMei

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untill we go into launch or at least beta, it will be hard to judge as many people are not playing till then.  Who knows how the factions will balance till then.

Plus, victory conditions may change from campaign to campaign, so a large faction maybe used.  

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1 hour ago, Tooltip said:

I guarantee that Balance is bored AF right now because there's no one to fight... in a fighting game.

 

 

Most of us are doing the same thing we always do, which is farm the poorly made socks out of everything so we can continue to make better gear, vessels, and equip our teammates. I feel that attitude says more about the current status quo than anything.

It's not like there were tons of fights happening all the time before this campaign anyway - and the bulk of the bigger ones we had were vs. HoA. We can still scrim vs them in EK's so not much as changed.

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4 minutes ago, DocHollidaze said:

 

Most of us are doing the same thing we always do, which is farm the poorly made socks out of everything so we can continue to make better gear, vessels, and equip our teammates. I feel that attitude says more about the current status quo than anything.

It's not like there were tons of fights happening all the time before this campaign anyway - and the bulk of the bigger ones we had were vs. HoA. We can still scrim vs them in EK's so not much as changed.

Just imagine if they actually did a wipe right now ... it would be an absolute ghost town. the next best way to kill the progress of testing would be to not give ample notice that the Campaign is ending prematurely and people were not given enough time to get their exports done. 

 

on a side note I was in one of the Balance keeps last night during the siege window . if any significant force moved in on us we would have lost the keep. there was maybe 15 people and most were unguilded and it would have been an utter disaster if Order or Chaos showed up. ... Just sayin it ain't over until J Todd says it over!

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6 minutes ago, Sharkbait said:

Just imagine if they actually did a wipe right now ... it would be an absolute ghost town. the next best way to kill the progress of testing would be to not give ample notice that the Campaign is ending prematurely and people were not given enough time to get their exports done. 

 

on a side note I was in one of the Balance keeps last night during the siege window . if any significant force moved in on us we would have lost the keep. there was maybe 15 people and most were unguilded and it would have been an utter disaster if Order or Chaos showed up. ... Just sayin it ain't over until J Todd says it over!

They have already given up, entirely abandoned the CW. 

 

17 minutes ago, DocHollidaze said:

 

Most of us are doing the same thing we always do, which is farm the poorly made socks out of everything so we can continue to make better gear, vessels, and equip our teammates. I feel that attitude says more about the current status quo than anything.

It's not like there were tons of fights happening all the time before this campaign anyway - and the bulk of the bigger ones we had were vs. HoA. We can still scrim vs them in EK's so not much as changed.

Well thats the difference in players.  The people winning are willing to put in the time required to win and the others aren't. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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8 minutes ago, Sharkbait said:

Just imagine if they actually did a wipe right now ... it would be an absolute ghost town. 

Except for those of us that headed back out to regrind again. Wouldn't be the first wipe, wouldn't be the last.

As Doc said:

19 minutes ago, DocHollidaze said:

I feel that attitude says more about the current status quo than anything.

Edit: Makes me laugh when newer players want a wipe so they can catch up. When we start to plateau, that's when they can catch up.

Edited by VaMei

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5 minutes ago, VaMei said:

Except for those of us that headed back out to regrind again. Wouldn't be the first wipe, wouldn't be the last.

 

 

I I know a wipe will be incoming in the future , timing is everything . it just made me think about all the times people have asked for a wipe. Wipes cause more problems than they solve but until launch they are inevitable. I just had that "just imagine" moment and the all I saw was tumbleweeds blowing buy. 

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