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Balance: 2.5mill | Order & Chaos: 500k

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Just now, DocHollidaze said:

Zero import/export campaigns solves this problem for players that perceive that issue to be a problem.

Going back to the original 5 realms plan, I can't help but think it's backward. God's Reach (3 faction) has lots of imports available, but very limited exports. The deeper you go through the Infected, the Shadow & the Dregs, you get fewer imports, more exports, and more fragmented structure.

Would it work better if:

God's Reach, 3 faction. Short campaigns. No imports, unlimited exports. Abundant resources of limited quality. New players learn the game, build small guilds and stockpile basic resources before venturing into the next layer.

The Infected, 12 faction. Longer campaigns, very limited imports, medium to high exports depending on victory conditions. Less abundant resources but higher quality. Rare loot drops become available. Guilds refine game play. Fail guilds are absorbed into more successful guilds.

The Shadow, GvG. Very long campaigns. Moderate initial imports with periodic resupply opportunities. Limited resource points, but highest quality resources available. High end loot drops more common. Zero to limited exports depending on victory conditions. Guild and alliance wars.

The Dregs, FFA. Short campaigns. Unlimited imports. Very limited resources of the highest quality. High end loot drops common. PvP free for all. The best rare stuff, if you can get it alone & manage to not loose it. Exports for top rank players. Salt for the rest.

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2 minutes ago, VaMei said:

Going back to the original 5 realms plan, I can't help but think it's backward. God's Reach (3 faction) has lots of imports available, but very limited exports. The deeper you go through the Infected, the Shadow & the Dregs, you get fewer imports, more exports, and more fragmented structure.

Would it work better if:

God's Reach, 3 faction. Short campaigns. No imports, unlimited exports. Abundant resources of limited quality. New players learn the game, build small guilds and stockpile basic resources before venturing into the next layer.

The Infected, 12 faction. Longer campaigns, very limited imports, medium to high exports depending on victory conditions. Less abundant resources but higher quality. Rare loot drops become available. Guilds refine game play. Fail guilds are absorbed into more successful guilds.

The Shadow, GvG. Very long campaigns. Moderate initial imports with periodic resupply opportunities. Limited resource points, but highest quality resources available. High end loot drops more common. Zero to limited exports depending on victory conditions. Guild and alliance wars.

The Dregs, FFA. Short campaigns. Unlimited imports. Very limited resources of the highest quality. High end loot drops common. PvP free for all. The best rare stuff, if you can get it alone & manage to not loose it. Exports for top rank players. Salt for the rest.

Two of those are gone.  Only dregs and tri-faction will be in at launch.


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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1 minute ago, mandalore said:

Two of those are gone.  Only dregs and tri-faction will be in at launch.

But would the model work better?

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1 minute ago, VaMei said:

But would the model work better?

Do they have the time and money to make them 4+ years into dev and only one cw type is in? 

Edited by mandalore

40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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Dregs is basically going to be Guild vs Guild, not FFA.

I would bet you real money that one will have either no import or enough import to bring in one set of armor and weapons.

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I'm just theory crafting here. Trying to come to a solution to a problem without creating more problems or significantly more work. None of this needs to be ready to go for launch, if ever.

From a design standpoint, I don't see a significant difference between my description of God's Reach and The Infected. Implementation may be another matter. If faction is a value, friend is an EQU of that value and enemy is NEQ, then it could be a matter of their knobs, switches & dials. Once procedural world generation is actually procedural & doesn't need play testing, dialing an appropriate number of factions and setting rules should be the difference.

Design for the FFA realm should be the easiest of all. It's a no rules, no friends, don't build anything thunderdome. The only design challenge I see on the surface is handling player respawn. Again, implementation is another matter. Nothing 'easy' ever is.

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22 minutes ago, DocHollidaze said:

Dregs is basically going to be Guild vs Guild, not FFA.

I would bet you real money that one will have either no import or enough import to bring in one set of armor and weapons.

If that remains the plan, and there are no imports when guilds and alliances have their wars, why would there be imports for factions? If there are no imports, then what point is there to exports? Should there even be an embargo system? If no embargo system, is there any point to EKs?

Edit: on the other hand, if the shallower realms are about building up to go deeper, and you use those war stores when you are deeper, you can starve an enemy of resources and drive them to shallower realms in the next campaign.

Edited by VaMei

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56 minutes ago, VaMei said:

If that remains the plan, and there are no imports when guilds and alliances have their wars, why would there be imports for factions? If there are no imports, then what point is there to exports? Should there even be an embargo system? If no embargo system, is there any point to EKs?

Edit: on the other hand, if the shallower realms are about building up to go deeper, and you use those war stores when you are deeper, you can starve an enemy of resources and drive them to shallower realms in the next campaign.

 

In my opinion Faction campaign will be for casuals and individuals. So, people can import because many people won't care about the result of the campaign.

Exports for Dregs would be supposedly about taking back home relics or some other fancy trophies. Theoretically. I imagine much of that is subject to change from previous design docs though.

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31 minutes ago, DocHollidaze said:

In my opinion Faction campaign will be for casuals and individuals. So, people can import because many people won't care about the result of the campaign.

Exports for Dregs would be supposedly about taking back home relics or some other fancy trophies. Theoretically. I imagine much of that is subject to change from previous design docs though.

There will likely be Dregs campaings with imports, and Dregs campaigns without imports. People can choose the ruleset they want. JTC has basically confirmed that when asked in the past.

Edited by Jah

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Two possible ideas to help with folk jumping ship and creating a huge faction imbalance:

1) Diminishing Returns. The ideal faction balance points would be in the ratio 1:1:1. This could be based upon numbers of players in each faction modified by average level/vessel quality/gear rating? At a certain point beyond this balance diminishing returns kicks in reducing points a faction gets towards victory?

2) Make capture of any guard post in a world count against the faction holding a keep if the capturing faction does not occupy the said keep. One could also have the loss of guard posts cause degradation of the keep (damage to the walls ... loss of health to the occupiers).

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11 hours ago, VaMei said:

Going back to the original 5 realms plan, I can't help but think it's backward. God's Reach (3 faction) has lots of imports available, but very limited exports. The deeper you go through the Infected, the Shadow & the Dregs, you get fewer imports, more exports, and more fragmented structure.

Would it work better if:

God's Reach, 3 faction. Short campaigns. No imports, unlimited exports. Abundant resources of limited quality. New players learn the game, build small guilds and stockpile basic resources before venturing into the next layer.

The Infected, 12 faction. Longer campaigns, very limited imports, medium to high exports depending on victory conditions. Less abundant resources but higher quality. Rare loot drops become available. Guilds refine game play. Fail guilds are absorbed into more successful guilds.

The Shadow, GvG. Very long campaigns. Moderate initial imports with periodic resupply opportunities. Limited resource points, but highest quality resources available. High end loot drops more common. Zero to limited exports depending on victory conditions. Guild and alliance wars.

The Dregs, FFA. Short campaigns. Unlimited imports. Very limited resources of the highest quality. High end loot drops common. PvP free for all. The best rare stuff, if you can get it alone & manage to not loose it. Exports for top rank players. Salt for the rest.

Doesn't matter what they are called or the rules they have, just needs to be different types of campaigns that cater to the various skill, experience, play time levels of different types of players. Should be relatively easy to tweak great and small differences when it comes to import/export/rewards/team structures, etc once they have the groundwork completed. Until then they should keep testing as testing and not try to pretend it's something it isn't. They had/have a good concept, just need to make it.

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17 hours ago, MazuR said:

twisted beyond everything. [..] How dumb it is [..]

don't bring up silly examples like chess game because it's not the same thing. There is such thing called "skill" and "experience" involved which means player whos got more of those will always win. Following this train of thought let's force winning chess player to use only half of his brain because it's fair and opponent can compete with him.

3

I cannot help but observe you sounds a bit aggressive. This is your first post on this forum, yet you came to attack this suggestion while everyone else seems to at least understand the intentions behind the idea. Not everyone agrees on the details, but all are acknowledging the issue and talking about possible solutions. Maybe you need to take a step back?

As for the chess example, as you said, a player with higher skills and experience will always win. Why do you want to player to also start with better units? This only exacerbates the issue.

Some games decided to counter the issue we are talking about with forced balance or matchmaking. Obviously thoses will not work for Crowfall, so I was suggesting a Handicap system as you commonly see in sports such as golf, horse racing, and competitive sailing in order to make the chances more equal.

If the 3 factions campaign is supposed to be the introductory step for new players to learn, then I see nothing wrong with a Handicap system. To go back to the sports analogy, this prevents the national champion to just go around every local competition, grab the cash prize and leave everyone else discouraged.

The dredges are there for you to compete in a giant blender of gears, skills and salt. Factions campaign should be different.

Edited by Gaulwa

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Obviously these issues were around in Shadowbane back in the day, but Eve Online is probably the game of this type that is the most notorious at providing this kind of brutal PvP environment. Despite that fact, however, the game can be considered incredibly successful. Huge player run organizations are incredibly powerful in determining the political landscape and the economic outcome of the game's player vs player interactions. IT"S NOT FAIR AT ALL yet that's what makes it so fun to play.

What lessons can be extracted from Eve Online that could be applied to Crowfall?

Edited by zenasprime

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2 hours ago, zenasprime said:

Obviously these issues were around in Shadowbane back in the day, but Eve Online is probably the game of this type that is the most notorious at providing this kind of brutal PvP environment. Despite that fact, however, the game can be considered incredibly successful. Huge player run organizations are incredibly powerful in determining the political landscape and the economic outcome of the game's player vs player interactions. IT"S NOT FAIR AT ALL yet that's what makes it so fun to play.

What lessons can be extracted from Eve Online that could be applied to Crowfall?

I think CF differs from Eve in the fact that here we are actually fighting each other.

Sure, in Eve you have those behemoths but a new player is totally able to come in and play his game without even bothering about them. They can each do their own thing bar some convoluted exceptions.

The bands -- and I hope we get more bands other than dregs and Faction -- could solve this problem quite a bit. It is a sort of basic matchmaking. The deeper you go the more, uh, hardcore things become. It is simple, Ace could simple wash their hands, If you go to the dregs unprepared, the blame is on you. People will crush and gank the hell out of you. That is okay.

Today we quite some skewed metric because of this. We have people who dont really wanna play the faction having to. I am tired of seeing posts that basically traslates to 'the faction rulest sucks let's move to the dregs already' or 'who cares about whether the faction ruleset is fun? All that matters is the dregs!'.

Can I blame those people? Not really, they just want to play the way the prefer. Do I think they might be lacking in foresight game-longevity wise? Yeah, I do.

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6 minutes ago, BarriaKarl said:

Sure, in Eve you have those behemoths but a new player is totally able to come in and play his game without even bothering about them. They can each do their own thing bar some convoluted exceptions.

Well sure, you could stick to playing in high sec space (or even low sec) and never rarely play the game where you are forced into an unfair position, which is what EK are suppose to be for players, but the meat and potatoes of the Eve experience is null sec. The dregs is where all the game's heroic and tragic stories are going to happen to players and guilds.

Faction play will be that middle ground where dregs politics will occasionally spill over as players try to tilt the balance here and there, but only in so much as part of the grander meta-game that's brought to life in dregs. CCP pretty much doesn't apply any influence in the state of things in game, and that has worked well for them for 14 years. I think it's an importance lesson to look at when deciding how things like faction imbalance is handled. Eve, after all, has a similar faction style play available to players yet we very rarely hear anything about the game in that regard. Maybe that says something significant. At least that's the way I'm seeing it.

3 minutes ago, BarriaKarl said:

Can I blame those people? Not really, they just want to play the way the prefer. Do I think they might be lacking in foresight game-longevity wise? Yeah, I do.

Yeah but this is a test build whose purpose is to test aspects of the game rather than provide an entertaining experience for everyone. If faction play isn't those players cup of tea, they can sit out for this round of testing. Reasonable players understand this.

I think that with the different tiers of gameplay, all players will have the opportunity to play the game mode that best fits them.


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7 hours ago, APE said:

Doesn't matter what they are called or the rules they have, just needs to be different types of campaigns that cater to the various skill, experience, play time levels of different types of players.

Beyond catering to all the different types of players, laying out the realms as I described creates a progression from realm to realm and rather than thinking of each campaign separately, they would all be tied together.

Rather thinking of all the realms and their campaigns in isolation, like MOBA battle maps, they all become intertwined, more like the regions of EvE.

A top tier guild would likely have simultaneous operations in all of the realms: recruiting and training new players in God's reach, farming mid-quality materials in the Infected for use in the Shadow, wars in the Shadow while producing top tier assets for use in the Dregs, and the Dregs themselves, where guilds support their top tier PvPers where they aquire high quality limited use recipes and rare additives.

By making resources scarcer as you venture deeper, it creates PvP content within the realm, the opportunity to starve your opponent out of the realm, and a material flow from the shallower realms to the deeper realms.

 

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4 minutes ago, VaMei said:

creates a progression from realm to realm

Oh god I so wish this concept of progression in video games would just die in a fire. I don't care about progression. I'm here to have fun playing a game against other players. If they are better than me, IT'S OKAY. I'll learn from the experience and hopefully get better at playing. We don't need safe spaces for every single level of play. Just throw players into the melting pot and let them figure out how to survive. If that's not their thing, there are plenty of other games out there that can provide the experience they are looking for.


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10 minutes ago, zenasprime said:

Oh god I so wish this concept of progression in video games would just die in a fire. I don't care about progression. I'm here to have fun playing a game against other players. If they are better than me, IT'S OKAY. I'll learn from the experience and hopefully get better at playing. We don't need safe spaces for every single level of play. Just throw players into the melting pot and let them figure out how to survive. If that's not their thing, there are plenty of other games out there that can provide the experience they are looking for.

Nothing I've said would prevent a day 1 noob from going into the Dregs. If they want to play reindeer games with Endless & Mystwraith before they learn how to play... Good luck.

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6 minutes ago, VaMei said:

Nothing I've said would prevent a day 1 noob from going into the Dregs. If they want to play reindeer games with Endless & Mystwraith before they learn how to play... Good luck.

That just sets up a dynamic where everyone feels  entitled to some reward, and we don't need yet another game dishing out participation trophies so that nobody get's their feelings hurt. Sometimes you lose, and people need to learn that that's okay. It's part of the journey.

Eve Online has High, Low, and Null sec, and this paradigm has worked well for them. CF has EK, Faction, and Dregs. There's an economy that stretches between them. I don't see how throwing players into an ever growing spectrum of "skill progression" is going to perform well in this kind of environment at all. It's just going to make the entire thing an exercise in isolationism.


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7 hours ago, zenasprime said:

What lessons can be extracted from Eve Online that could be applied to Crowfall?

 

There's also a few fundamentals between a classic Heroic Fantasy and EvE.

In EvE, if you feel you are in danger, you always have a good chance to escape with your loot. You can emergency warp, scramble your positions while they are scanning for your new position, and hopefully you can make it to one of the gates or stations. In crowfall, you get ganked with no chance to escape (Exception of OP classes).

EvE Online also have a massively large universe. A small group can claim an isolated system and thrive there. In Crowfall, it is difficult to hide out of the way, the good resources are already rare, and usually around keeps.

If you cannot get out of the way, and if you have no chance to survive, it makes things more difficult for smaller groups to thrive.

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