Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
Sign in to follow this  
Rikutatis

The power gap in CF: knowledge, builds, gear, etc.

Recommended Posts

I was reading the dumpster fire thread for entertainment when I came upon this extremely interesting post by @makkon that mirrors my thoughts on the matter exactly: 

crYy1py.jpg

I've been saying this since discs were first introduced and it's just been getting worse over time. There's layer upon layer of complex stats that interact in weird ways with each other and all of it is almost esoteric and almost none of it is explained anywhere. CF has very little mechanical skill involved and almost all of it is knowledge and build based. In build I include gear as well. 

The devs said they want a more shallow power curve and I'm really happy for that, the first steps they've taken to lower the gear power curve was a very good start. At some point the game will need a monumental wiki effort in order to lay it all down, and considering this is a PVP game (unlike other complex knowledge based PVE games like Warframe), a lot of it will be kept as a secret and people will be unwilling to share it, including bugs and exploits (this already happens in the test).

And even when/if this monumental wiki effort to explain everything to new players and guilds coming into the game occurs, and a good chunk of the knowledge is available somewhere, it'll still scare away a large part of the people that don't like to read dozens or hundreds of pages on the wiki to learn about the game and be competitive.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Rikutatis said:

At some point the game will need a monumental wiki effort in order to lay it all down...

Nah. All the game needs is a clear explanation of the basics* from the development team. Literally everything else should be learned through experience, especially since this is an evolving product and things will, and should, inevitably change.

*to be clear, I consider almost everything listed by makkon to be part of "the basics," but the details of how those basics interact, that esoteric knowledge, doesn't need to be handed out like candy on Halloween; and probably shouldn't, considering overloading people with information they can't understand or understand how to use might be worse than obscuring that information.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I personally think the power curve is fine how it is. The powerhouse guilds aren't dominating because they've got a few more stats than everyone else.

They could have worse gear than newer players and still crush them. The issue right now is the massive knowledge gap. Running "meta" groups is significantly more powerful than people who run thrown together groups. The players that have this meta knowledge are also typically players with a lot of experience and are more skilled than the average player. They're also more organized AND have a streamlined guild gearing system. 

All of these things combined is making for some serious power differences. The meta will become more diverse as class balancing becomes more of a priority. The client controller, performance optimizations, and physics changes will also change how effective certain classes are. I don't think any dramatic measures need to be taken. New guilds will catch up and the old powerhouse guilds can only optimize things so much.

Also "winning" in Crowfall doesn't really mean much right now and nobody really seems to care about the outcomes of things that aren't big team fights. This further compounds the meta issue. When smaller objectives become more meaningful you'll see some of these non-meta classes be utilized.

Right now it's just an old boys club and the same people have been running the show because nobody else really wants to. Hopefully we get some Eve guilds in here and some hungry young blood to liven things up. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Rikutatis said:

CF has very little mechanical skill involved and almost all of it is knowledge and build based. In build I include gear as well.

Hopefully the devs will continue shallowing the power curve, I fear that documentation and resources to gain info for new players will be sorely lacking the rest of the year. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the OP-OPs post is spot on. The knowledge gap between new and veteran players is extensive. That's partially because Crowfall's been open to the public for effectively 3 and a half years. People joining this late in the development cycle are of course disadvantaged. 

Complaining about documentation isn't new either. Yet, try to understand that documenting _anything_ in Crowfall during this process has been mostly a waste of time. The things change so quickly from patch to patch, that any documentation created a year ago is probably obsolete and practically useless. Its one of the chief reasons I shut down the Stealthed blog. Not only were changes slow to come, but when they were it was difficult to get clear concise answers without extensive testing that arguably wasn't all that fun.

Those who stuck with it and play Crowfall likes its a live game (and there are several people who self-identify as this type of player) are absolutely advantaged by playing the game.

With all of this said, is this a bad thing? No. Depth in the MMO genre is great. Learning something new that changes how you play is incredible for an MMO. I wouldn't want a dumbed down simplified version of Crowfall, just to make people who joined last month feel better about themselves. If you get easily frustrated by poorly documented, mostly untested features, then playing Crowfall right now is NOT a good idea. I think if people stopped treating this as a game to be won, and instead a game to be tested; a whole lot more progress would be made. Instead we've had incendiary forum threads and nonsense political goings-on dominating the conversation; despite the chief architect of Crowfall making a rare effort to interact with the public community. 

So no, nothing needs to be "fixed" here. Documentation will come, either from the developers or the community. This is a big ole' nothingburger at this stage of the development of Crowfall.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It would be nice if they at least had something on the website showing in game disciplines and their powers and skill trees. Hell you get basic instructions with a board game....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, bear said:

It would be nice if they at least had something on the website showing in game disciplines and their powers and skill trees. Hell you get basic instructions with a board game....

It'd be nice, but take a stroll through the FAQ and you'll see why they won't do that :P

Also we have Scree to thank for doing the useless and making malekai.org


giphy.gif

You Can't Be A Genius, If You Aren't The Slightest Bit Insane.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

TBH a lot of this basic info used to be available to the new players by way of the general chat tab, now it's up to people in the individual faction to keep their allies informed. Sure there are always going to be people giving troll answers when someone asks for help, but there's usually a number of people assisting the new testers as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, coolster50 said:

It'd be nice, but take a stroll through the FAQ and you'll see why they won't do that :P

Also we have Scree to thank for doing the useless and making malekai.org

Thanks I love the malekai site but it needs some updating

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, KatzeWeiss said:

TBH a lot of this basic info used to be available to the new players by way of the general chat tab, now it's up to people in the individual faction to keep their allies informed. Sure there are always going to be people giving troll answers when someone asks for help, but there's usually a number of people assisting the new testers as well.

Honestly I'd like to see the general chat return, for this and for other reasons as well. I think the inevitable toxicity is a small price to pay to be able to communicate with enemy factions. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is a ton of general knowledge that should be published.  There’s also a ton of knowledge that is gained through trial and error  (crafting, for example ) that the bigger guilds have and (possibly) the newer/smaller guilds do not which is fine.  Eventually that knowledge will be available to everyone but for now it offers a competitive edge and so will be guarded.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, ComradeAma said:

I would get a general chat in Dregs where only guild leaders and officers can talk. It will allow communication and avoid a lot of toxicity.

Eh?  You think guild leaders and officers won’t trash talk just as much, if not more than other ranks?  

 

The knowlegde gap is extensive and a huge barrier.  A NPE will help but CF is a complicated game and no matter how much information is available people won’t know how to apply it correctly without some nuanced experiences. 


This post was paid for by "Mandalore for Emulated CF Community Manager 2032™". 

wiDfyPp.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This problem is super simple to solve. It is enough for UI to have a question icon (?) next to the name of each character's status/profession. The player would put the mouse on top and would have information about that status and professions quickly. It is a simple thing that does not require much work and would help the new to know exactly what each decision will result.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, hamon said:

This problem is super simple to solve. It is enough for UI to have a question icon (?) next to the name of each character's status/profession. The player would put the mouse on top and would have information about that status and professions quickly. It is a simple thing that does not require much work and would help the new to know exactly what each decision will result.

I don’t want people to be able to mouse over my character and see what I am.  Nope. Nope. Nope.  Not today satan. 


This post was paid for by "Mandalore for Emulated CF Community Manager 2032™". 

wiDfyPp.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/23/2019 at 11:56 AM, ZYBAK said:

I personally think the power curve is fine how it is. The powerhouse guilds aren't dominating because they've got a few more stats than everyone else.

They could have worse gear than newer players and still crush them. The issue right now is the massive knowledge gap. Running "meta" groups is significantly more powerful than people who run thrown together groups. The players that have this meta knowledge are also typically players with a lot of experience and are more skilled than the average player. They're also more organized AND have a streamlined guild gearing system. 

All of these things combined is making for some serious power differences. The meta will become more diverse as class balancing becomes more of a priority. The client controller, performance optimizations, and physics changes will also change how effective certain classes are. I don't think any dramatic measures need to be taken. New guilds will catch up and the old powerhouse guilds can only optimize things so much.

Also "winning" in Crowfall doesn't really mean much right now and nobody really seems to care about the outcomes of things that aren't big team fights. This further compounds the meta issue. When smaller objectives become more meaningful you'll see some of these non-meta classes be utilized.

Right now it's just an old boys club and the same people have been running the show because nobody else really wants to. Hopefully we get some Eve guilds in here and some hungry young blood to liven things up. 

For once I think Zybak is mostly correct.  But, I think the powercurve should be decreased and go back to 5.7 where whites were 5 pips(or 6?) lowering the gap between White Gear and Green+.  The nerf to weapon stats helped noobs and casuals, but lowering whites to 4 pips was a big shift in favor of green+. 

It would be a huge effort, but balancing the promotion classes would make kitchen sink specs that casual forces bring to fights perform better.   The promotion classes are not balanced well now, only 6-7 are really "viable" (e.g. top end.)

The coordination/organization and experience gap is also very large.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Of the 30 available specs most of them are bad.  I’m not being hyperbolic either, more than 15 of the available 30 specs vastly under perform in most circumstances.  It’s a huge balance undertaking that I personally don’t have much faith will be done right.  

Theres a handful of specs that over perform and that’s what most of the Winterblades / HoA alliance are running.  If the other specs performed well we would run those too but they don’t so we don’t use them. 

 

 


This post was paid for by "Mandalore for Emulated CF Community Manager 2032™". 

wiDfyPp.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, mandalore said:

Of the 30 available specs most of them are bad.  I’m not being hyperbolic either, more than 15 of the available 30 specs vastly under perform in most circumstances.  It’s a huge balance undertaking that I personally don’t have much faith will be done right.  

Theres a handful of specs that over perform and that’s what most of the Winterblades / HoA alliance are running.  If the other specs performed well we would run those too but they don’t so we don’t use them. 

 

 

The beauty is that we are constantly theorycrafting ways to try and make other specs work. This was true in Shadowbane and is certainly true in Crowfall. Sometimes people come up with specs which, on paper, shouldn't work...but in practice, are quite viable. That's one of the incredible things about this game...there are SOOO many different combinations...and some work...and some don't...and that's ok.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Gradishar said:

The beauty is that we are constantly theorycrafting ways to try and make other specs work. This was true in Shadowbane and is certainly true in Crowfall. Sometimes people come up with specs which, on paper, shouldn't work...but in practice, are quite viable. That's one of the incredible things about this game...there are SOOO many different combinations...and some work...and some don't...and that's ok.

I agree with this in theory, but the implentation doesn't seem to be going well.  My memory before 5.8 is fuzzy, I took a good chunk of time off to let the stabalization improve and my interest return.  I'm playing almost daily now, so we've gotten it half right.  Anyway, it seems we actually had more choice before, odd as that sounds, with only the "basic template" and abilities to mix and match weapons, most discs, and things of that nature.  We had the freedom to screw up ourselves; seems now quite a few of those choices have been taken away and ACE has, in a lot of classes, screwed things up for us.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Gradishar said:

The beauty is that we are constantly theorycrafting ways to try and make other specs work. This was true in Shadowbane and is certainly true in Crowfall. Sometimes people come up with specs which, on paper, shouldn't work...but in practice, are quite viable. That's one of the incredible things about this game...there are SOOO many different combinations...and some work...and some don't...and that's ok.

Yes,  so why the custard am I playing a Champion?   Used to Druid ok, used to Ranger well, why do my classes get the shaft and force me to play so totally against my playstyles...  I should be hunting duelists and  assassins and kiting melee around but neither work anymore with dodge and movement normalization and pitiful ranges.   That is frustrating and not likely fixed soon.   Damn good thing is isn't Alpha yet.  I can play spec group forced comp but it isn't as fun.    That I haven't even made a bow yet in 5.8 is telling since I have had end game bows in every test since rangers were the new gods.


6FUI4Mk.jpg

                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...