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R37ry

Vanguard Scout Passive

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Change this passive to reducing the cost of the Duelist Ultimate and clearing DoTs (with a cd) when you do use the Duelist Ult. The Lifesteal is useless for what I believe to be the purpose of this class. I would also suggest swapping the Max Health talent with the Ranged Distance Bonus that the Dirge gets, I think both subclasses would be happy with that trade.

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38 minutes ago, R37ry said:

Change this passive to reducing the cost of the Duelist Ultimate and clearing DoTs (with a cd) when you do use the Duelist Ult. The Lifesteal is useless for what I believe to be the purpose of this class. I would also suggest swapping the Max Health talent with the Ranged Distance Bonus that the Dirge gets, I think both subclasses would be happy with that trade.

I think the devs are reluctant to give Vanguards the range bonus because they want the use of Cheap Shots/Go For Broke to come with considerable risk. The problem is that nearly all the Vanguard's advantages depend on stealth -- and stealth is incredibly fragile. We really miss the invulnerability on the ult.  Once you're popped from stealth (voluntarily or involuntarily), the class immediately becomes second rate. Escapist almost seems to be a required discipline (along with Agent Provocateur), which limits build diversity.

Being unable to slot most passives in the stealth tray is also quite frustrating. 

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vanguard is stealth adjust promo. best way to buff this promo is give him faster move speed while stealthed.

not bad idea is /2 cost of ultimate also. current last skill is a joke, yes


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19 hours ago, Pwca said:

I think the devs are reluctant to give Vanguards the range bonus because they want the use of Cheap Shots/Go For Broke to come with considerable risk. The problem is that nearly all the Vanguard's advantages depend on stealth -- and stealth is incredibly fragile. We really miss the invulnerability on the ult.  Once you're popped from stealth (voluntarily or involuntarily), the class immediately becomes second rate. Escapist almost seems to be a required discipline (along with Agent Provocateur), which limits build diversity.

Being unable to slot most passives in the stealth tray is also quite frustrating. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the purpose of this class is to harass people from stealth.

And yet, with a range of 15 meters, there isn't a single class that VGS can harass even without them having perception and invisibility spotting, they can pop it from stealth with any random cone AoE during the 3.5-4 Seconds that it takes to channel Go For Broke, on top of that, at 15M there isn't a single class other than maybe Assassin(I don't know all of their skills) that doesn't have at least 1 ranged, damaging CC ability.

Who is a VGS going to harass? A Knight? Turn and Chain in <2s, a Myrmidon? Turn and Net+Pull in <3s A Champion? Throw Hurlbat and you're in single-leap distance, doesn't even have to double-leap to reach.

Druid, Confessor, Cleric? VGS is in basic attack range for those classes (excluding Platefessor subclass) and Other Duelists and Rangers outstrip VGS range by almost 60% and 100% respectively. So Assassins, it is? I guess? if you're lucky enough to find one during the time a stealth-discovery ability is up.

Even on Assassins, if you slap on a Sharpshooter or Arcane Archer, you already have 15-20 more range than a Vanguard Scout.

So you're intended to do less damage from a closer range with lesser or equal resistances and maybe 300 more health and a Lifesteal Ability that only works if you're not taking damage?

That's not a risk, that's suicide.

Inb4 Saltpeter Rounds, changing the number from 15 to 20 doesn't invalidate most of these arguments, it's like slapping a band-aid on a ruptured spleen.

Edited by R37ry

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Yeah, give vanguard scout faster stealth move, and allow to wear mail armor.

Personally, I feel it is better used as a class in keep sieges. They have the best capability IMHO to get inside the keep and up on the walls to harrass defenders, and get back out at will - with their shorter tunnel cooldown.

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1 hour ago, R37ry said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the purpose of this class is to harass people from stealth.

And yet, with a range of 15 meters, there isn't a single class that VGS can harass even without them having perception and invisibility spotting, they can pop it from stealth with any random cone AoE during the 3.5-4 Seconds that it takes to channel Go For Broke, on top of that, at 15M there isn't a single class other than maybe Assassin(I don't know all of their skills) that doesn't have at least 1 ranged, damaging CC ability.

Who is a VGS going to harass? A Knight? Turn and Chain in <2s, a Myrmidon? Turn and Net+Pull in <3s A Champion? Throw Hurlbat and you're in single-leap distance, doesn't even have to double-leap to reach.

Druid, Confessor, Cleric? VGS is in basic attack range for those classes (excluding Platefessor subclass) and Other Duelists and Rangers outstrip VGS range by almost 60% and 100% respectively. So Assassins, it is? I guess? if you're lucky enough to find one during the time a stealth-discovery ability is up.

Even on Assassins, if you slap on a Sharpshooter or Arcane Archer, you already have 15-20 more range than a Vanguard Scout.

So you're intended to do less damage from a closer range with lesser or equal resistances and maybe 300 more health and a Lifesteal Ability that only works if you're not taking damage?

That's not a risk, that's suicide.

Inb4 Saltpeter Rounds, changing the number from 15 to 20 doesn't invalidate most of these arguments, it's like slapping a band-aid on a ruptured spleen.

Even with the range bonus Dirge gets, you would still be within the range of pretty much every class/ability you listed. It’s always perilous to try to read the devs' minds, but I think they envisioned this class as one that relies on catching enemies at unawares, relying on dizzy downs and expose knockdowns (though snipe removes you from stealth).

That said,  the risk far outweighs the reward right now. I like the idea of increased stealth speed (and mail!), not to mention your suggestion for the reduced ult cooldown. I think vanguards have to live with the prospect of being popped from stealth on a regular basis. With a few changes, they’ll also be able to live through it. 

One last note: I don’t think pistol Dirges would be happy trading the range bonus for the Vanguard’s health bonus. They already get a health bonus of their own, so the gains would marginal while they would be giving up a lot.  Maybe the default range of pistol powers should be changed to something in the 20-25m range, now that Duelist damage has been toned down.

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1 hour ago, Pwca said:

Even with the range bonus Dirge gets, you would still be within the range of pretty much every class/ability you listed. It’s always perilous to try to read the devs' minds, but I think they envisioned this class as one that relies on catching enemies at unawares, relying on dizzy downs and expose knockdowns (though snipe removes you from stealth).

That said,  the risk far outweighs the reward right now. I like the idea of increased stealth speed (and mail!), not to mention your suggestion for the reduced ult cooldown. I think vanguards have to live with the prospect of being popped from stealth on a regular basis. With a few changes, they’ll also be able to live through it. 

One last note: I don’t think pistol Dirges would be happy trading the range bonus for the Vanguard’s health bonus. They already get a health bonus of their own, so the gains would marginal while they would be giving up a lot.  Maybe the default range of pistol powers should be changed to something in the 20-25m range, now that Duelist damage has been toned down.

Pistol Dirges, what are those? And why are they a thing? They shouldn't be. You can't use impale without a rapier and half of the Dirge tree is about rapier damage or abilities, since the pepperbox shot reducing piercing mitigation certainly doesn't improve your pistol damage.

Also, while it doesn't help much when it's 15, from 24 Saltpeter would put you at 29 meters, which is outside of the range of many of the things listed.

Edited by R37ry

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1 hour ago, R37ry said:

Pistol Dirges, what are those? And why are they a thing? They shouldn't be. You can't use impale without a rapier and half of the Dirge tree is about rapier damage or abilities, since the pepperbox shot reducing piercing mitigation certainly doesn't improve your pistol damage.

Also, while it doesn't help much when it's 15, from 24 Saltpeter would put you at 29 meters, which is outside of the range of many of the things listed.

You give up a lot of damage, not only from the Dirge tree but also from the Caltrops debuff (if you're using Agent Provocateur). In return you get improved survivability, better uptime on targets, easier target switching, and easier resource generation.  Combined with okay-ish damage, a pistol Dirge can be a fairly decent utility/dps build -- using Plague Lord or Shield Breaker, for example. Rapier is better for solo play, but in group play, healing can cancel out the bleed from Impale, and you may not want to be in melee range with the heavies. If Resist Pain had a shorter cooldown, staying in melee range would be less risky. The built-in expose punish from Flintlock Shot pairs well with Plague Lord, as does the increased hard control intensity. By foregoing the melee-related skills, you free up points for survivability skills (personal healing modifier, hard control defense). Foregoing the Dirge passive makes room for other passives (Rot, Rupture Barrier).  Not everyone's cup of tea, but not totally crazy.

Of course, this raises the question of whether you want to bring any kind of Duelist to a group fight, instead of one of the meta classes. But some people just love the class.

Sorry for the lack of organization above. It's been a long day.

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4 hours ago, Pwca said:

You give up a lot of damage, not only from the Dirge tree but also from the Caltrops debuff (if you're using Agent Provocateur). In return you get improved survivability, better uptime on targets, easier target switching, and easier resource generation.  Combined with okay-ish damage, a pistol Dirge can be a fairly decent utility/dps build -- using Plague Lord or Shield Breaker, for example. Rapier is better for solo play, but in group play, healing can cancel out the bleed from Impale, and you may not want to be in melee range with the heavies. If Resist Pain had a shorter cooldown, staying in melee range would be less risky. The built-in expose punish from Flintlock Shot pairs well with Plague Lord, as does the increased hard control intensity. By foregoing the melee-related skills, you free up points for survivability skills (personal healing modifier, hard control defense). Foregoing the Dirge passive makes room for other passives (Rot, Rupture Barrier).  Not everyone's cup of tea, but not totally crazy.

Of course, this raises the question of whether you want to bring any kind of Duelist to a group fight, instead of one of the meta classes. But some people just love the class.

Sorry for the lack of organization above. It's been a long day.

The fact that Plate Armor is worth more than anything in the other 2 trees by itself to some people is its own problem; personally, I think they shouldn't get Plate, just Mail.

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9 hours ago, R37ry said:

The fact that Plate Armor is worth more than anything in the other 2 trees by itself to some people is its own problem; personally, I think they shouldn't get Plate, just Mail.

I'd rather see them reduce the amount of health attached to plate (and armor in general) than have them nerf one tree.

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1 hour ago, Pwca said:

I'd rather see them reduce the amount of health attached to plate (and armor in general) than have them nerf one tree.

Nah, Health does need to be toned down, we’re only using 1/2 if the treated steel and we’re already pushing up on the Health Cap.

But Leather is also too squishy to be usuable. Basic Leather has the same mitigations as Intermediates, and the healing/dmg mod isn’t enough of a trade off to make it worth it. I’d much like it if base mits on Leather were closer to 10%, than the 5% like it is now.


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2 minutes ago, coolster50 said:

Nah, Health does need to be toned down, we’re only using 1/2 if the treated steel and we’re already pushing up on the Health Cap.

But Leather is also too squishy to be usuable. Basic Leather has the same mitigations as Intermediates, and the healing/dmg mod isn’t enough of a trade off to make it worth it. I’d much like it if base mits on Leather were closer to 10%, than the 5% like it is now.

More resists or faster dodge-pip regeneration for leather would be nice. I would just like to see health tied to class/race/con instead of the armor itself.

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