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pappy

Crafting - Flawed Assembly

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Posted (edited)

It's really hard to take this game seriously or even have a reason for hope when the crafting system sucks so bad.

98% Success Chance

3 Flawed Assembly on the Final Combine.........3 times in a row!!!!   2% my butt!

I quit testing this game over 2 years ago because of Flawed Assembly a Blue Confessor book after farming my butt off.  Poof!  Back when you didn't get back anything.

I can't believe this problem is still a thing, because the odds of getting 2% the 3 times in a row is WAY WAY WAY less than .02%

 

Edited by pappy

"If your not failing sometimes, you aren't growing.  Without growth, there can never be greatness."

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Posted (edited)

Odds of 3,  2% chances in a row, is 1/125,000.  Not impossible, but pretty long odds.

I've often said I think there is a problem with the unity RNG, as there is with many software RNG implementations.  

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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Posted (edited)
59 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Odds of 3,  2% chances in a row, is 1/125,000.  Not impossible, but pretty long odds.

I've often said I think there is a problem with the unity RNG, as there is with many software RNG implementations.  

 

it happened to me the other day failed 2 out of 3 rings crafts yesterday lucky there were blues

Edited by veeshan

Veeshan Midst of UXA

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Had similar issues before, usually 2 in a row on final combines, I don't think the % it shows is actually %.

Also I don't get why I fail when I literally have max skill. Oh you can't get any better? FAIL

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Just like 2 days ago my blacksmith failed twice on my blue mail gauntlets, what pieces of yours are failing, it might be an item problem rather then the entire system being broken

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I flawed a weapon grip and then a final combine on a blue greatsword trying to help out a new player last night. I had 95 blacksmith assembly. Feels bad man. 

I wish a flawed weapon made it downgrade one quality rank but STILL allowed for experimentation. 

There should also be a certain interval of assembly skill vs. item difficulty that you reach where it's not possible to fail assembly anymore. 

 

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

I've often said I think there is a problem with the unity RNG, as there is with many software RNG implementations.  

I see it all the time harvesting. 2-3 legendary drops in a row, then none for a good while. Nothing new and unique to CF, I have yet to run into a game that doesn't have statistically improbable event chains as status quo. One of these days programmers will figure out how to generate random that is truly random.

Any hope for that on the quantum front?

Edited by VaMei

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Had 2 this morning in a space of 10 mins, that 2% seems a bit to common. There is no way a master crafter would mess up a piece of work, apprentices yes, masters no. I agree with Blazzen there should be a point where you shouldn't be able to get flawed items anymore, I was working with blue leather at the time of my flawed pieces. 

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13 hours ago, pappy said:

It's really hard to take this game seriously or even have a reason for hope when the crafting system sucks so bad.

98% Success Chance

3 Flawed Assembly on the Final Combine.........3 times in a row!!!!   2% my butt!

I quit testing this game over 2 years ago because of Flawed Assembly a Blue Confessor book after farming my butt off.  Poof!  Back when you didn't get back anything.

I can't believe this problem is still a thing.  Not to be crass but seriously whoever is doing the calculations needs to go back and retake some math/statistics classes because the odds of getting 2% the 3 times in a row is WAY WAY WAY less than .02%

 

Hi pappy...

... and though you are not a newb, you didn't post a lot yet, so i hope it is OK for you if I say welcome to the crowd. :)

In my experience there are (basically) three ways to adress possible issues one may become aware of:

  • You can report a probable issue in the according Playtest Feedback & Bug Report thread. If you think something doesn't go right or something might be a bug, that's the way to go. This forum is scanned by the QA team and the rest of the developer team most frequently. This is what they look at most. So if you want to contribute to change something in a constructive way, this is the best way to go.
  • You can share your ideas in the suggestions subforum. This is less about current problems and more about suggestions how future problems could be solved. Brainstorming, ya know. Maybe there is an idea they didn't have themselves yet. If you have one of those, there you go.
  • You can start a public conversation about something that upsets you. For example in General Discussions.

Please let me emphasize that i am not generally against putting feedback topics into General Discussions. Indeed i am not looking primarily at wether it is right or wrong to post there. Right now I am mostly looking at your specific case. Because, you are basically right, you see? But the way you adressed it is able to damage the result of your approach.

Putting something to General Discussiaons can be a delicate thing. This is a PvP game ... which means it attracts a certain type of players more than others. And those PvP guys, i tell ya ... they are not very fond of complaining. Maybe mostly because complaining is often associated with fulfilling the role of a victim = weakness.

You could just have made a feedback in the feedback thread. If you had thought about the issue in a more detailed way and would have come up with an ingenius solution, you might have made a suggestion thread.

But no, you just made a thread in the General Discussions, complaining that what you see now is not what you want to see.

Allow me to be frank with you. This doesn't look good. And i tell you, it's not appreciated in the most efficient way by most of the crows. The white knights won't like it because you haven't been constructive. The dark knights won't like it because you showed weakness. The gray knights ... well, usually don't care anyways.

The point is, starting a general discussion about a topic like this has a touch of complaining only for the sake of complaining. Just to relieve some anger and disappointmet.

Which is fair enough.

But it doesn't really help to find solutions.

I think the game and it's players deserve better. I think YOU can do and deserve more. For you, for the other players, for the future game, for the company.

 

This said, this company (ACE) has proven to be customer oriented over the last few years in ways i couldn't have imagined before. They are really listening. But ... what we say needs to make sense and to be helpful. It's not enough to just say you don't like something. I mean, you can, but this way you won't change a lot. So if you want to change things, try to do it where it belongs. Just making a fuzz about things that are not fully developed yet, and doing it in a way that seems to suggest that your only motive is to boast around ... that's not really the way.

In Crowfall ... it's just not necessary to be the loudest to achieve something. At least not as far as the dev's are concerned. Sense is what matters most.

Just complaining won't do it. Being the loudest or make the biggest topic won't either.

I heard you. And I believe you have some serious and important thoughts. And if you go deeper, i think you can contribute much more to changes for the final game than this thread would have been able to.

Just saying. ;)

 

Have fun, good luck

Kraahk

 

 

 

 


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Posted (edited)

Time it takes to farm for a full set of legendary armor and 1 weapon: ~100 game hours, if nothing fails.  Time it takes to wreck durability of a set of legendary: 15-20 combat hours.  These are estimations based off of the durability increase I've seen from color to color, the durability loss data (amount and rate) from standard play (winning at least half your fights, no tow trucking) and the frequency of legendary resources from a fully kitted harvester.  This also considers you have access to rank10 ore nodes of the proper type.

 

The whole system is horrible, from resource (availability) to crafting to use.

Edited by Ble

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, VaMei said:

I see it all the time harvesting. 2-3 legendary drops in a row, then none for a good while. Nothing new and unique to CF, I have yet to run into a game that doesn't have statistically improbable event chains as status quo. One of these days programmers will figure out how to generate random that is truly random.

Any hope for that on the quantum front?

There are hardware solutions that solve the problem, but that's not a option for cloud servers.

Usually RNG streaks are a code problem, like someone re-seeding the RNG every call, effectively resetting it to the start of the ellipse again.  If for example the seed was set based on the time you opened the table, and then re-seeded every X number of combines (in a poor effort to make it "more" random), you can end up creating a cycle or pattern.

This is from the unity documentation.

 

Quote

The random number generator is not truly random but produces numbers in a preset sequence (the values in the sequence "jump" around the range in such a way that they appear random for most purposes).


void Start() {
        Random.seed = 42;
        noiseValues = new float[10];
        int i = 0;
        while (i < noiseValues.Length) {
            noiseValues[i] = Random.value;
            print(noiseValues[i]);
            i++;
        }
    }

 

In the above example, every time the seed is reset to 42, the preset sequence will restart.   If there is something in the crafting code that keeps setting a seed, this can trigger multiple repeats. 

I would suggest crafters should make it a habit to walk away from the table, and craft "something" else on a combine fail, to try to shake out whatever seems to keep locking the RNG down.

Given all the "two in a row" (1/2,500 tries at 98%) above, it seems to me like the seed might be getting reset to the same value, and after a certain number of tries the 99,100 (both fails) sequence in the "preset sequence" is getting hit.

I have also seen the streaks on harvesting, and it it sure looks like RNG is not really RNG, despite what running 10,000's of samples shows in the distribution frequency.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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I had 5 flawed at 98% trying to make a weapon yesterday, I ended up making 1 blue and 2 greens between the final combine being flawed the first time around and having a 4 flawed middle pieces. Something is funky.

 

Some game use a statistical approach versus actual randomization sequences. In simpler terms based on the % you are “dealt” a number of hits or no hits (often done for crits), the number is based on some expected number of attempts. So using the crits example let’s say you are dealt 100 attacks and your crit is 25%, 25 of your 100 attacks will be crits, additionally they can be distributed across those 100 attacks so you have predictable crits every 4th attack.


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Posted (edited)

^^^ That is called decking.

https://crowfall.com/en-US/news/articles/streaking-the-pros-and-cons-of-rng/

Quote

In a system like this, each “roll of the dice” is not treated as an independent event. Instead, all of the potential outcomes are shuffled together, like a hand of cards, and cards (results) are removed from the deck as they are used. As each card is removed from the deck, the probability of specific cards in future draws shift along with it, thus ensuring that streaks can’t last.

Thread from over a year ago when this news was posted.

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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After reading the Streaking story...

At the time, Blair felt that they would lean toward decking. Assuming that's the deal, it does a lot to explain my harvest results, or at least satisfy my gamer's superstition.

As to the flawed assembly: should a new level of failed assembly be introduced?

  • Miss your roll by <5%, you loose a quality level, but keep experimentation for that quality.
  • Miss by >5%, no experimentation for you.

At 95% assembly chance & above, you can still get sub-par results, but it would never be a total loss.

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I craft my green rune tools in batches of 20 and have seen two flawed  assemblies in a row maybe only once in all my batches. I do believe that how they have the flawed assembly set up currently is too punishing especially once you get into high level mats.

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Decking and crafting is awkward, how big is your deck? Plus the impact of “failure” is very different compared to other game systems.

The impact variance alone is pretty wild. I’ll get whooped in combat or lose all my gathering in a gank and wonder “what could I have done better?” (Still not thrilled but at least introspective acceptance)

But on a string of crafting failures At 2% I feel the rage and want to give up. It’s out of my hands and negates all the past effort, theirs nothing to learn - it’s a pure loss.

So if it’s not broken, it needs a rework, if it is broken, it needs a fix 😛

 

 


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On 3/7/2019 at 1:25 AM, Fefner said:

and another flawed on final piece, its getting ridiculous!!!! what a waste of resources!

I know your pain man.  I have basically given up on crafting anything worth a crap again.


"If your not failing sometimes, you aren't growing.  Without growth, there can never be greatness."

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