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Posted (edited)

 

1 hour ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

I personally think that 1X training would be a big mistake. I think that original number was a playable placeholder estimation that does not represent how things should really play out. The current pace of about 3 months to end of crafting profession is pretty decent for live in my opinion. 

You push that to 9 months, and I think you lose a huge number of players that don't want to commit to a game for nearly a year before getting into a competitive posistion, which is exactly what the state would be after the first batch made to full training. 

 

Ok that is an unrealistic position for any testing and we have other, harsher mechanics like locked major and fully crafted disciplines to work through.

I still think that end game in 3 months makes us blow through the early skill maturity too fast...    even with the big jump from white to green, the early power creep all happening in the very first campaign if it were to be 14 days or longer.    Diminishing returns means progression is front loaded...    blink and you miss the one day of players in white gear, one week at most in green...   why have these colors at all, new players after 3 months won't need them...   Why does the rewarding feeling benefits of advantage have to come so fast?   Is my time moving faster than yours?   I thought 9 months to end game was a starting point and that gives us maybe a week in white and 2 more in green gear...  maybe it is that last beta where we see 1x.   We need to find that other end of the scale, the slow end, the too slow...   10x was just to test early crafting mechanics, 3x for getting the game loop right.   I think some of our balance issues are solved by slowing progression creep and of course flattening it.

Edited by Frykka

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                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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2 minutes ago, Frykka said:

 

Ok that is an unrealistic position for any testing and we have other, harsher mechanics like locked major and fully crafted disciplines to work through.

I still think that end game in 3 months makes us blow through the early skill maturity too fast...    even with the big jump from white to green, the early power creep all happening in the very first campaign if it were to be 14 days or longer.    Diminishing returns means progression is front loaded...    blink and you miss the one day of players in white gear, one week at most in green...   why have these colors at all, new players after 3 months won't need them...   Why does tus he rewarding feeling benefits of advantage have to come so fast?   Is my time moving faster than yours?   I thought 9 months to end game was a starting point and that gives us maybe a week in white and 2 more in green gear...  maybe it is that last beta where we see 1x.   We need to find that other end of the scale, the slow end, the too slow...   10x was just to test early crafting mechanics, 3x for getting the game loop right.   I think some of our balance issues are solved by slowing progression creep and of course flattening it.

The "game" is going to blow through these values eventually regardless.  Your argument would be just as valid as if we had 1 advanced level or 100, because eventually everyone will want to be in the maximum level gear, whatever that is, from pretty much the day they start.

Only us first through players are going to experience the world parceled out by the passive training lines. Anyone coming in 3 or 9 or 12 months down the road will be confronted with players in end game gear. 

Knowing your at least 9 months away from being a competitive crafter would be a major turn off.

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19 minutes ago, PAINDOTCOM said:

Noone was demanding a wipe, just made a suggestion, %'s and decimals are changing with harvesting, among a bunch of other things. Thought it was a good suggestion, some people have disagreed and said why. I believe we have been having a solid discussion on the topic at hand beside a few off topic comments. 1x passive training would prolly hurt the pre-alpha/alpha more than a wipe almost a year before getting to second level of passive training seems a bit much.

You mean four or so days to reach Excavation or Reaping or any craft (instead of 18 or so hours), a long week to unlock Weapons, Armor or Command, (instead of 72ish hours)….   lets see that translate into players in crafted vessels in exactly x days...   and should that x be 3, 10, or 20?    I am not being accurate here but the point is to set the pace of progression to something we could enjoy for months...   several build up campaigns toward our commercial push.


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6 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Knowing your at least 9 months away from being a competitive crafter would be a major turn off.

^


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

The "game" is going to blow through these values eventually regardless.  Your argument would be just as valid as if we had 1 advanced level or 100, because eventually everyone will want to be in the maximum level gear, whatever that is, from pretty much the day they start.

Only us first through players are going to experience the world parceled out by the passive training lines. Anyone coming in 3 or 9 or 12 months down the road will be confronted with players in end game gear. 

Knowing your at least 9 months away from being a competitive crafter would be a major turn off.

Creating demand for the training tomes...  and supply will drive the prices down.   We will compete against each other to create them.   That is the mechanic for the late comers...  what is the maturity rate of any video game these days?   Are we building this game for only that player base...  You advocate the sprint, the drag race based on what...   impatience with having the finish line where progression creep and the widest individual advantage is way out there...    counting on some update to give you more to advance to?   We explain achievers in terms of end game stats yet we can never satisfy them.   Explorers and Killers should care less if they have some progression...  fighting in white gear when everyone has white gear should satisfy them the same as in blue...   for the explorer it isn't progression at all,  it is new and bigger maps with new configurations and new POIs...   you point to Bartle's enough.  

 

Edited by Frykka

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                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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4 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

I personally think that 1X training would be a big mistake. I think that original number was a playable placeholder estimation that does not represent how things should really play out. The current pace of about 3 months to end of crafting profession is pretty decent for live in my opinion. 

I agree, 3-4 months to master something feels about right.

Good combat players can be good without delving too deep into the skill trees. Harvesters can focus on a single branch and be as good as the old dogs on that one product. In crafting, either you have your mastery, or you are less. No one is going to take their rare loot only additives to someone that doesn't have all of their assembly and experimentation, and the reputation to back it up.

If active skill development becomes a thing, that will change the equation, but asking someone to invest 9 months into being a less than competitive scrub seems a bit over the top to me.

Perhaps once you have enough skill points to earn mastery in 2-3 skill tracks, then the passive gains should slow down?

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14 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

The "game" is going to blow through these values eventually regardless.  Your argument would be just as valid as if we had 1 advanced level or 100, because eventually everyone will want to be in the maximum level gear, whatever that is, from pretty much the day they start.

Only us first through players are going to experience the world parceled out by the passive training lines. Anyone coming in 3 or 9 or 12 months down the road will be confronted with players in end game gear. 

Knowing your at least 9 months away from being a competitive crafter would be a major turn off.

That is a problem with the skill tree then. If you make the leveling too fast you make the actual progression meaningless.

We will have the skill tome catch-up mechanic and probably some newbies-only CWs. The key is making the whole 9 months of leveling interesting and not just go 'nobody cares about that part and wants to be master as soon as possible',

That way of thinking hurts players themselves. Enjoy the ride. Take joy in seeing your progress. Don't skip steps.

Of course the 9 months is subject to change after we test it, but I am with frykka. I would like at least, at least, 1 month between gear upgrades. Specially since players don't go back after upgrading (sans special exceptions), once you move to blue you are never going back to white so enjoy the noob phase while it lasts.

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2 minutes ago, Frykka said:

Creating demand for the training tomes...

I suspect that tomes with the fall off value could effectively reduce the time from 9 to maybe 4.5 months before the expected value fall off exchange of them to actual training points became too onerous.

Regardless, tome catch up does not by itself deal with the fundamental issue in my opinion, that 9 months behind is simply too long for a game that toutes dealing with the Uncle Bob problem as one of it's primary objective. 

Being a minimum of 9 months behind an Uncle Bob in a single profession, is too far behind in my opinion.

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, Frykka said:

I am not being accurate here but the point is to set the pace of progression to something we could enjoy for months...   several build up campaigns toward our commercial push.

That's a good sentiment for launch too, something we can all enjoy together. I agree with that.

 The test comes later when new players join and feel the constant pressure and the mad scramble to catch up with people who are now the predators. Skill tomes are a good idea and I like the mechanic but those mugs are gonna be incredibly valuable (expensive?)and it will be one more thing that a nub has to grind in order to be competitive.

I think this is the crux of the wipe no wipe discussion. Harvesting is not fun(mostly, there is a lot to be said for interesting discord discussions), the mechanics are complex. There is a stat and value for everything, the seasonal debuffs limit the returns on time invested. It's a fog for new players. Heck we've got testers here that have been around for a while and still dont know. Srathor has explained different pieces to me many times and I still have to ask. I just wanna ask ACE hey can I get the dumbed down version of this so that I can hit my rocks and buy the stuff I dont have so I can borrow someone's fully trained crafter to make the stuff I need to be competitive? The knowledge curve is crazy, you need a 200 level theory of game design degree to decipher this junk.

Pain I'm sorry I'm derailing your topic. Item wipe wouldn't be so painful (see what I did there?) If the systems for requiring items weren't so damn difficult. Even with broken bene harvest, It's too much for this guy and I suspect most people feel the same way. 

Edited by Chroma
Decided to ramble

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, BarriaKarl said:

That is a problem with the skill tree then. If you make the leveling too fast you make the actual progression meaningless.

We will have the skill tome catch-up mechanic and probably some newbies-only CWs. The key is making the whole 9 months of leveling interesting and not just go 'nobody cares about that part and wants to be master as soon as possible',

That way of thinking hurts players themselves. Enjoy the ride. Take joy in seeing your progress. Don't skip steps.

Of course the 9 months is subject to change after we test it, but I am with frykka. I would like at least, at least, 1 month between gear upgrades. Specially since players don't go back after upgrading (sans special exceptions), once you move to blue you are never going back to white so enjoy the noob phase while it lasts.

"Don't skip steps" and "enjoy the journey" is what I've always thought that was what import rules for campaigns was for. Want to experience a green campaign, find one that blocks all imports of anything above green, and caps out resource nodes at 3.

If you don't think that would be appealing to you, why would you assume it's appealing to someone else?

I think we have all seen so far in this test, that if allowed players will rush as much as possible to the end game.  I know most of the first day players in our guild are looking for and being encouraged to get into, is blue or better gear.  And that level is being supported by the guild, so it's possible.

Any player taking the "journey" in a campaign that allows any level of gear, is going to be rolled over in most matchups.

That's going to apply as much to players wanting to be "dedicated" crafters as fighters. Right now, our guild has zero interest in new players helping us craft, because of sub-current standard results.

Fighters can make up for missed combat passive training with skill, and the results have the largest impact on them.  Want to be a guild crafter, welp no way am I taking your sub par builds over our other crafters, until you catch up on your training.

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

"Don't skip steps" and "enjoy the journey" is what I've always thought that was what import rules for campaigns was for. Want to experience a green campaign, find one that blocks all imports of anything above green, and caps out resource nodes at 3.

If you don't think that would be appealing to you, why would you assume it's appealing to someone else?

I think we have all seen so far in this test, that if allowed players will rush as much as possible to the end game.  I know most of the first day players in our guild are looking for and being encouraged to get into, is blue or better gear.  And that level is being supported by the guild, so it's possible.

Any player taking the "journey" in a campaign that allows any level of gear, is going to be rolled over in most matchups.

Of course they are. Everyone else is wearing blues so they would be handicapped otherwise.

That seems to be the misconception going around here. Newbies shouldnt be playing against vets.

A crafter that can only craft green shouldnt be playing in CWs where all other crafter can pump out purple. The same reason I don't see a reason for a vet crafter that can craft legendary gear to go play in a green-only CW like you suggested.

There is no reason for new players to rush. They should be playing with people around their level. It seems better in my opinion, otherwise we might as well get rid of the skill training and have everyone start at max level.

Edited by BarriaKarl

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3 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

I think we have all seen so far in this test, that if allowed players will rush as much as possible to the end game.  I know most of the first day players in our guild are looking for and being encouraged to get into, is blue or better gear.  And that level is being supported by the guild, so it's possible.

^

Once we have a mature game and we're months into a campaign, gear quality is not a matter of progress, it's bang for your buck. Running suicide zergs where you will repeatedly die after being cut off from respawn and forced to tow-truck? Probably a good time to burn up the greens or even the whites. Must win last stand before the home keep is sacked? Time to hand out the legendaries.

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3 hours ago, ZeFx said:

Not sure how that even corresponds, I know a lot of the Balance folks have done a massive amount of mind numbing circle standing to get where they are on the leader boards. The leader boards have very little to do with gear and have to do more with class, guild, group, and spec. 

I have run into Staff circle standing I don't know how many times in the last couple days. Starting to feel bad every time I see him because we usually have a group of 5. 

Please spare me...... Ive been trying to help some newer players by getting them into my guild and showing them the ropes of PvP, but theyre in common gear and running into the most geared and coordinated players is not a recipe for a good time lol


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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, BarriaKarl said:

Of course they are. Everyone else is wearing blues so they would be handicapped otherwise.

That seems to be the misconception going around here. Newbies shouldnt be playing against vets.

A crafter that can only craft green shouldnt be playing in CWs where all other crafter can pump out purple. The same reason I don't see a reason for a vet crafter that can craft legendary gear to go play in a green-only CW like you suggested.

There is no reason for new player to rush. They should be playing with people around their level. It seems better in my opinion, otherwise we might as well get rid of the skill training and have everyone start at max level.

While I suspect/hope that population levels support enough players for all varieties of worlds, I can guarantee you that guilds are going to push ALL their players into whatever worlds they are involved in, and all but the insanely large guilds are going to be very reluctant to split up efforts into winning multiple worlds. Heck even the super large guilds may only focus on one campaign at a time.

Guilds are going to do their utmost to have new players bypass the middle steps and join them in the vets worlds.

This is a guild centric game right? 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, BarriaKarl said:

Of course they are. Everyone else is wearing blues so they would be handicapped otherwise.

That seems to be the misconception going around here. Newbies shouldnt be playing against vets.

A crafter that can only craft green shouldnt be playing in CWs where all other crafter can pump out purple. The same reason I don't see a reason for a vet crafter that can craft legendary gear to go play in a green-only CW like you suggested.

There is no reason for new player to rush. They should be playing with people around their level. It seems better in my opinion, otherwise we might as well get rid of the skill training and have everyone start at max level.

I am glad that this does turn back to the question of wipes in a way...   it is not a hijack.

Full wipes take us back to launch day and simulate the one time shot of progression for us, the players who will play at soft launch.  The experience of players starting post soft launch is not simulated by a wipe.   An item only wipe simulates what happens if you place vet players and new players into a import/export restricted campaign (but not skill restricted)...  we did this once back in January and what we saw was some of the widest gaps between player power to date.   

A wipe doesn't accomplish any catch up, we know this.   Wipes DO need to be full wipes imo, gear wipes will not simulate anything we will experience at launch or late game progression wise.   How fast can a skilled out group of players reset their production base is not going to be a player feature we experience again and again. (unless a twink crew in a noob campaign is your thing)

 

 

Edited by Frykka

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14 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

While I suspect/hope that population levels support enough players for all varieties of worlds, I can guarantee you that guilds are going to push ALL their players into whatever worlds they are involved in, and all but the insanely large guilds are going to be very reluctant to split up efforts into winning multiple worlds. Heck even the super large guilds may only focus on one campaign at a time.

Guilds are going to do their utmost to have new players bypass the middle steps and join them in the vets worlds.

This is a guild centric game right? 

Seems suboptimal to me. Winning multiple CWs should be more profitable than betting it all in a single one.

I would expect smart guilds to have some inside leagues. Full trained, almost full trained, halfway there, recently joined, etc.

I mean, if player all progress in the same rate plus things like pop cap (both CW pop cap and zone pop cap) there will be a moment where buffing numbers with newbies wont be enough. Not like guilds will be giving the best possible to lowly newbs (gear, vessels, discs). There will be a certain number of player that will become optimal.

Specially in rulesets that don't favor numbers playing as much.

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, BarriaKarl said:

Seems suboptimal to me. Winning multiple CWs should be more profitable than betting it all in a single one.

I would expect smart guilds to have some inside leagues. Full trained, almost full trained, halfway there, recently joined, etc.

I mean, if player all progress in the same rate plus things like pop cap (both CW pop cap and zone pop cap) there will be a moment where buffing numbers with newbies wont be enough. Not like guilds will be giving the best possible to lowly newbs (gear, vessels, discs). There will be a certain number of player that will become optimal.

Specially in rulesets that don't favor numbers playing as much.

I can see those divisions within a guild, and different smaller groups tending to run together, but I can't see people in the same guild choosing to join campaign worlds that will be guaranteed to keep them playing apart from other guild members for 3-6 months at a time.

The guild would have to be something awful "goons" large to field enough people to justify splitting things up, given the goal of 20k players per server.

I just don't see the expectation of players even wanting to step slowly over the course of almost a year through the process being viable as a crafter, for 90+% of the population.

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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Blazzen benchmarked it and it's about 2hrs with ore training and average picks and nothing else (including no bene armor) to get all the ore you need to have a blue set of gear on current map.

There's so much content missing on this game.  We really have only one successful PVP driver and that's sieges.

I've come to question the role passive training has for harvesting. It mostly just makes the NPE miserable until you can get the training unlocked. (~60 day+ at 3x trains) 

That said, once you have training, the "progression curve" of the game can be completed in a single day--easily completed in a weekend.  Even done sub-optimally a character is complete in a week.  So...What is going to keep people playing "in the zones" generating content and world PVP if the progression curve is so short?

Right now it takes more time to gear out a character in SBEmu than it is CF (assuming you have harvest training and access to trained Crafters).  The difference is Shadowbane effectively has factories doing the gear rolling passively.... Hopefully ACE delivers on the long promised factories for CF soon.

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Blazzen benchmarked it with the bugs in the system for 100% uptime on beneharvest and 75% crit chance.

Rethink your numbers. 

We have never had a campaign without the bugs/potions being used in one way or another. 

We need to see the real numbers. I have already seen the real numbers over a year ago when I spent a month not using the potions and leveling and gathering with real numbers and no bugged gear/race training/potions.  It is a horrible unfun experience. And when those bugs are fixed we need to have the devs aware that the leveling/gathering game is going to suck ass. 

No endless tree farming with 100% uptime tree farmer macros pumping out thousands of dust and a hundred or so Chaos embers an hour. 

No uber gatherers who can get 6+ purples a node every 20 seconds for as long as you can stomach running around. (Not to mention the dust and embers)

Take a step back from the tryhard winning groupthink and examine the health of the god damned game. 

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