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mandalore

The Hordes of Chaos vs The League of Extraordinary Balance

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6 minutes ago, xary said:

I used to think it unfortunate that I couldn't join these sieges. However i'm glad I do not go. After watching some balance streamers from last night it's clear there is much to fix from the Devs standpoint and though players should not be blamed, if they wanted balanced fights players couldn't certainly help balance things out but after 3 campaigns it's clear they will not. So we wait on devs to fix zone caps, performance and class balancing as well as other features and in the meantime we play actual fun games or spend time with family. It has to be boring standing around a keep for 45 minutes then chop down some trees and try to enter another siege zone only to be capped out. Great action. Much fun! 

What is a balanced fight? 


This post was paid for by "Mandalore for Emulated CF Community Manager 2032™". 

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1 hour ago, mandalore said:

What are the problems as you see them?  Discussion is the whole point but too often it just becomes trolling from each side.

The main point is not a problem at all.  Just the cold hard fact that balance has the most powerful, experienced, organized guilds working together.  There isn't anything wrong with that, but it's also somewhat insurmountable right now.  Before you say, "try harder", there isn't a simplistic counterbalance to that.  We've obviously been trying a variety of things to even compete.  Maybe the answer shows itself this campaign, maybe it doesn't, but despite what it may look like, we are trying.  Now, if trying hard is standing in circles at 4AM, then that is just effort I (and likely others regardless of faction) don't have the luxury of doing thanks to IRL obligations to jobs and families (if only I were in my early 20's again :P)

A tertiary "problem" is something that needs to be discussed in a way that isn't accusatory, finger-pointing, etc.  Some of the tactics on display in recent campaigns skirt the gray areas of the way the game should be played.  I won't stand here and tell people how the game should be played as one little potato sees it, but I think we can all agree to the general concept of what we guess the developers intentions are for the systems within the game.  Yes, there are bugs, and yes, its a good thing to expose those bugs or get the developers to see something they didn't anticipate, but the "anything goes" mindset of a pre-alpha game gets a little frustrating.   

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26 minutes ago, xary said:

I used to think it unfortunate that I couldn't join these sieges. However i'm glad I do not go. After watching some balance streamers from last night it's clear there is much to fix from the Devs standpoint and though players should not be blamed, if they wanted balanced fights players couldn't certainly help balance things out but after 3 campaigns it's clear they will not. So we wait on devs to fix zone caps, performance and class balancing as well as other features and in the meantime we play actual fun games or spend time with family. It has to be boring standing around a keep for 45 minutes then chop down some trees and try to enter another siege zone only to be capped out. Great action. Much fun! 

Define balanced?  The galstor fights last night were 40-45 balance vs 55-60 chaos (Zone was capped).  The Chaos Keep was 10 balance vs 35-ish chaos.  I wasn't going to say it, but the failure here was on Chaos leadership.  They did a last minute offensive and didn't leave the proper personnel at their home keep to defend it properly from 10 people.  The larger chaos force that went on offense did manage to get a wall down by hitting the town from two angles (good move) but only made one breach (bad move) and weren't able to push into the city.  Everything else aside, chaos got completely strategized and outplayed last night.  But that's the luxury we have of sieges every night.  Your leaders will learn from their mistakes and try a different approach next time.  Now that balance has to be spread out over 3 zones, its going to really tough to hold all three, so chaos should come away tonight with a victory at at least one keep.

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Posted (edited)

The most fun CSC I have been having is just fighting at the chaos keep before siege....  We always get swamped eventually, but usually there are some good fights after we poke the bear enough.  It kind of sucks, but it is unfair to blame a guild for the current predicament even if it is easy to do so. 

20 coordinated players are significant in a test environment that is always below 300.  The goal is to have thousands of concurrent players, at which point those numbers won't mean as much. (plenty of flaws in that argument I know.)

It was fun playing order for a time in zaleena, but ultimately it just wasn't worth it.  We were the smallest faction, and after we botched a siege defense our morale just fell apart due to campaign score.  I think the game is vastly more suited for 2 faction with it's current populations and objectives. 

I also think the catch-up mechanics are a lost cause when end campaign capture rewards trivialize spring and summer rewards.  Cutting take-over rewards in half might be effective since a functioning city's productivity is almost certainly higher than the spoils of pillaging one.  

Edited by Oaths

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Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, firstworldpotato said:

The main point is not a problem at all.  Just the cold hard fact that balance has the most powerful, experienced, organized guilds working together.  There isn't anything wrong with that, but it's also somewhat insurmountable right now.  Before you say, "try harder", there isn't a simplistic counterbalance to that.  We've obviously been trying a variety of things to even compete.  Maybe the answer shows itself this campaign, maybe it doesn't, but despite what it may look like, we are trying.  Now, if trying hard is standing in circles at 4AM, then that is just effort I (and likely others regardless of faction) don't have the luxury of doing thanks to IRL obligations to jobs and families (if only I were in my early 20's again :P)

There are plenty of people on the chaos faction who consider themselves quality leadership.  When people complain that one faction is try hards and the other is why bother its pre alpha I can't help but %+@!$#?&*^ my head to the side like a confused dog.  If we don't treat testing as though it were live now how are they supposed to balance the alpha and beta for release.  Is it that people think casual testing will result in try hard results?  This game is intended to be played brutally and with intent to smash your opponents and if we test it like its a different game how are they ever going to get a feel for what launch will be like.  As for the standing in circles at 0400, thats just a poorly made socksty mechanic that will be changed soon and we have to ride it out.  The whole circle standing mechanic is bleh and night capping with no fights is poorly made socksty. 

Edited by mandalore
%+@!$#?&*^ is a wierd way to say tilt

This post was paid for by "Mandalore for Emulated CF Community Manager 2032™". 

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3 minutes ago, mandalore said:

 This game is intended to be played brutally and with intent to smash your opponents and if we test it like its a different game how are they ever going to get a feel for what launch will be like.  

Getting into Order's keep through a hole in the wall prior to siege, then logging in an alt account on order to fix the hole in the wall so Balance can down the keep the second the siege start is not playing brutally with the intent of smashing opponents.  It's one of the grey area items.  If that calls out a flaw in the game design that's great, but what I don't understand is that when you guys get called out for doing something like that, you straight up lie about it and say you didn't, or that it didn't happen like that.  Nobody cares that something gets taken advantage of for the sake of getting it fixed, but lying about it stinks of trying to cover it up or keep it secret to be taken advantage of at a later time.  If that were the case, its 100% toxic, selfish behavior.  

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32 minutes ago, firstworldpotato said:

Getting into Order's keep through a hole in the wall prior to siege, then logging in an alt account on order to fix the hole in the wall so Balance can down the keep the second the siege start is not playing brutally with the intent of smashing opponents.  It's one of the grey area items.  If that calls out a flaw in the game design that's great, but what I don't understand is that when you guys get called out for doing something like that, you straight up lie about it and say you didn't, or that it didn't happen like that.  Nobody cares that something gets taken advantage of for the sake of getting it fixed, but lying about it stinks of trying to cover it up or keep it secret to be taken advantage of at a later time.  If that were the case, its 100% toxic, selfish behavior.  

Can you link an example of people "straight up lying" about what happened at Order's keep?

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Posted (edited)
39 minutes ago, firstworldpotato said:

Getting into Order's keep through a hole in the wall prior to siege, then logging in an alt account on order to fix the hole in the wall so Balance can down the keep the second the siege start is not playing brutally with the intent of smashing opponents.  It's one of the grey area items.  If that calls out a flaw in the game design that's great, but what I don't understand is that when you guys get called out for doing something like that, you straight up lie about it and say you didn't, or that it didn't happen like that.  Nobody cares that something gets taken advantage of for the sake of getting it fixed, but lying about it stinks of trying to cover it up or keep it secret to be taken advantage of at a later time.  If that were the case, its 100% toxic, selfish behavior.  

Nah it was shady and low down to do it like that.  Order should have built up the wall and not left a hole in.  Balance shouldn't have gone through a gap in the wall and built the wall using an order alt.  It's shady as fuuuuuuuck but that's not an exploit or a bug, that's just being cutthroat.  This game is going to be filled with that and if people lack the stomach for cutthroat then I got nothing for you.

 

I'd rather the devs see the issues now and prepare for 50k people do it than nobody do it now and they get caught unprepared at launch. 

Edited by mandalore

This post was paid for by "Mandalore for Emulated CF Community Manager 2032™". 

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38 minutes ago, Jah said:

Can you link an example of people "straight up lying" about what happened at Order's keep?

It was a combination of conversations going on in various communications channels, to include Discord and Twitch.  There was one explanation of what happened that was the complete opposite of what was observed by a spy.  The story evolved from there were no walls, to there was a hole, to the hole was filled by "someone" in Order.  If that someone just HAPPENED to be some random order guy that just HAPPENED to see a hole in the wall a few minutes before siege and had the foresight to fix it, then all apologies.  I have no screenshots of those conversations, and honestly, if I did, I wouldn't post them, because it's not worth calling out individuals by name in a public space.  I'm not trying to start a witch hunt here, I'm just trying to say there is no point in trying to hide these types of issues.  If you disagree with the need for transparency, I'd like to hear what you think there is to gain by keeping glaring holes in the game design to yourselves.  

 

39 minutes ago, mandalore said:

I'd rather the devs see the issues now and prepare for 50k people do it than nobody do it now and they get caught unprepared at launch. 

That really is the most important part of all of this.  Discover and test bugs, exploits, or even things that you think should be improved on.  Whether they break the rules, bend the rules, or would just make an imbalance.  Just be transparent about it to the devs.  If things are being reported to the devs without being put on blast on the forums, that's understandable too.  In the end, leave it in the devs hands.  If they call it a "feature" or say there isn't anything they want to do about it, then that's that.

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Just now, firstworldpotato said:

It was a combination of conversations going on in various communications channels, to include Discord and Twitch.  There was one explanation of what happened that was the complete opposite of what was observed by a spy.  The story evolved from there were no walls, to there was a hole, to the hole was filled by "someone" in Order.  If that someone just HAPPENED to be some random order guy that just HAPPENED to see a hole in the wall a few minutes before siege and had the foresight to fix it, then all apologies.  I have no screenshots of those conversations, and honestly, if I did, I wouldn't post them, because it's not worth calling out individuals by name in a public space.  I'm not trying to start a witch hunt here, I'm just trying to say there is no point in trying to hide these types of issues.  If you disagree with the need for transparency, I'd like to hear what you think there is to gain by keeping glaring holes in the game design to yourselves.  

You publicly claimed that we were "straight up lying" and judged that as "100% toxic, selfish behavior." You started the witch hunt already.

The "evolving story" in discord and twitch sounds like people who didn't know what happened were talking about it. And then you come here and accuse us of "straight up lying." 

The people who took Order's keep never lied about it. You are the one who is lying here.

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1 minute ago, Jah said:

You publicly claimed that we were "straight up lying" and judged that as "100% toxic, selfish behavior." You started the witch hunt already.

The "evolving story" in discord and twitch sounds like people who didn't know what happened were talking about it. And then you come here and accuse us of "straight up lying." 

The people who took Order's keep never lied about it. You are the one who is lying here.

The witch hunt was referring to who said what.   I'm not going to say who said what.  The evolving story was between people who were actually at the Order keep, from BOTH factions, so they did know what they were talking about.  It's all out there if you are that curious about it.  Start digging through the Twitch VODs.  Nobody is accusing anyone, what I stated was fact.  Call it lying, misrepresenting the truth, not giving the full story, or whatever you want to term it as.

1 hour ago, Jah said:

*********If that were the case*********, its 100% toxic, selfish behavior

 Go ahead and get insulted where there is no insult.  Yes, I will say with utmost specificity, that IF you, Jah, are knowingly withholding bugs and exploits for the express purpose of taking advantage of those bugs and exploits without submitting them to the Crowfall Developers, you are being toxic and selfish.  Replace your name with anyone on the planet and it still holds true IN MY OPINION.  

 

 

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Just now, firstworldpotato said:

The witch hunt was referring to who said what.   I'm not going to say who said what.  The evolving story was between people who were actually at the Order keep, from BOTH factions, so they did know what they were talking about.  It's all out there if you are that curious about it.  Start digging through the Twitch VODs.  Nobody is accusing anyone, what I stated was fact.  Call it lying, misrepresenting the truth, not giving the full story, or whatever you want to term it as.

 Go ahead and get insulted where there is no insult.  Yes, I will say with utmost specificity, that IF you, Jah, are knowingly withholding bugs and exploits for the express purpose of taking advantage of those bugs and exploits without submitting them to the Crowfall Developers, you are being toxic and selfish.  Replace your name with anyone on the planet and it still holds true IN MY OPINION.  

This really isn't the right forum for your baseless accusations and attempts to smear people. I'm not going to dig through random twitch VODs to see if I can defend your claims for you. If you aren't going to support your accusations with any evidence, maybe don't make them? It's toxic.

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1 minute ago, Jah said:

This really isn't the right forum for your baseless accusations and attempts to smear people. I'm not going to dig through random twitch VODs to see if I can defend your claims for you. If you aren't going to support your accusations with any evidence, maybe don't make them? It's toxic.

Because that's what the topic is about, my slanderous, baseless, smear campaign against Balance.  You Sea Lion like a pro.

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Balance got 3 keeps for three primary reasons last night.

1. Chaos was split across several discords and comms were in total disarray. Shots were being called and many people weren't hearing them due to to the division in voice comms and it caused us to be slow to respond to situations appropriately. We had people staying in when a call to fall back was given, staying back when being told to push etc.

2. We decided to take all of our people to push the offense to get experience pushing the offense. Ultimately, that wasn't a good tactical decision if we care about winning this campaign. But I think many people are here to learn and really don't care about winning or losing all that much. Not presenting a value judgement on that mentality one way or the other, it's just clearly a reason we failed to defend our keep.

3. Older characters and more experienced players on balance.

Personally, I joined a few days ago. I don't really care if we win or lose this campaign. I just care that we're stronger going into the next one than we are in this one.

Good fights.

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8 minutes ago, Andius said:

Balance got 3 keeps for three primary reasons last night.

1. Chaos was split across several discords and comms were in total disarray. Shots were being called and many people weren't hearing them due to to the division in voice comms and it caused us to be slow to respond to situations appropriately. We had people staying in when a call to fall back was given, staying back when being told to push etc.

2. We decided to take all of our people to push the offense to get experience pushing the offense. Ultimately, that wasn't a good tactical decision if we care about winning this campaign. But I think many people are here to learn and really don't care about winning or losing all that much. Not presenting a value judgement on that mentality one way or the other, it's just clearly a reason we failed to defend our keep.

3. Older characters and more experienced players on balance.

Personally, I joined a few days ago. I don't really care if we win or lose this campaign. I just care that we're stronger going into the next one than we are in this one.

Good fights.

That's a surprisingly nuanced opinion that most of your faction peers don't share bc of feelings.  Good on you. 


This post was paid for by "Mandalore for Emulated CF Community Manager 2032™". 

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