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Rikutatis

Seasoned characters vs New Players (FAQ discussion)

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Posted (edited)

I've seen at least one person make the argument there needs to be meaningful progression for people to be interested in logging in. For PvPers this isn't true. At all. I played a game 5 years that character progression could be maximized in the first 5 hours because the combat system was engaging/fun. A lot of other people loved that game too. It was called Freelancer and it's success kind of helped launch another prominent crowdfunded game developed by the same guy (Chris Roberts).

What PvPers do want is some way to measure their success. Which is provided by the fact campaigns have win conditions. Real PvPers (Not bottom feeders who need their egos propped up by the fact their gear/level will enable them to make SOME kills) will have no issue getting into this game whether or not there is any stat disparity at all between white and purple gear so long as they have a way to measure whether they are winners or losers.

This does have some truth when it comes to economic aspects like crafting. A thriving economy requires and endless supply of work you can do to help advance your guild/faction. Anything that gives people an advantage PvPers are going to want though. Whether that be a 500% power gap or a 5% power gap. Items that provide minor advantages that are cycled through the economy via destruction very quickly are just as good or better than items with a huge power gap that stay in the economy a long time.

I don't know the current state of the game well enough at this point to comment on how well it's doing in these regards. Just throwing out some general thoughts from my experience with PvP and Open World PvP sandboxes in particular.

Edited by Andius

"To hell with honor. Win."

A Beginner's Guide to Crowfall (5.8.5 Edition)

 

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Posted (edited)

I wish they just kept vessels as gear and added talents/attribute points to them sans the leveling. Would have been perfect.

As for the overall problem: it’s less about gear and vessels and more about very bad tuning. Mitigation’s and HP need reworks (tho that’s possibly coming soon), damage number differences between different classes’ abilities need work, etc....

Theirs some really bad math in their that’s creating a lot of these feast or famine scenarios. Not everything has to be balanced 1 to 1 (and shouldn’t) but theirs too many “hard” counters currently.

Edited by Duffy

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Level a white vessel / class to thirty get an achievement that locks to that account.  Something like:

Knight Basics Mastery.  Any knight vessels created start with these base stats. 

If you make a green vessel you get the talent points to spend at the start, and the 90 stat points. Any extras you get for having better stats or more points is unlocked through the next set of 30 levels with the new body.  But you keep what you learned already.

Rinse repeat Either with a green+ achievable or just keep the different tween the white and the purple or something. 

Every new vessel losing so much power and being forced to restart with zero skills is an abomination. 

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Some kind of trash armor available at level 1 would be helpful. Prominently featuring player vendors at the beachhead/in your faction's temple would help a lot too. Afterall the whole point of vendors only offering garbage armor is to put emphasis on player crafting. Why not just make player crafted armor more accessible to newbs in a manner that rewards the crafters?


"To hell with honor. Win."

A Beginner's Guide to Crowfall (5.8.5 Edition)

 

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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, srathor said:


Every new vessel losing so much power and being forced to restart with zero skills is an abomination. 

Should be able to sac vessels for the XP put into them or at the very least some of the XP. 

Edited by mandalore

40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

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6 hours ago, Rikutatis said:

Right now Crowfall isn't so much a territory control PVP game, but more like a farming simulator spreadsheet game with some pvp sprinkled in to close the loop.

50 minutes ago, Andius said:

I've seen at least one person make the argument there needs to be meaningful progression for people to be interested in logging in. For PvPers this isn't true. At all....What PvPers do want is some way to measure their success.

Agree with these comments, I bought into the idea of a "flattened power curve" because I feel like it's a critical design element to grow a playerbase and maintain on-going success of an open-world PvP-focused game. Competition, character building, and custom crafted gear are not at odds with this concept if balanced correctly.

I am not really interested in playing a  PvP game where powerful gear is based on how much money you put in (paytowin) OR how much time you put in (grindtowin). I was hoping for a game about pvp skill and map strategy, with a strong crafting economy to support - waiting to see if upcoming changes/additions will get us there.


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2 hours ago, mandalore said:

That's going to come down to money spent on animations which they will 100% answer with maybe post launch. 

Rolling out crowfall with combat half finished would be disasterous for the game. Sure ACE will make money and will help them promote their artisan engine, but the amount of folks that will leave quickly will be way above the 80% in the first month standard. Delaying game until all combat mechanics are done would be better for the game. Seeing how they are now at the point of publicly talking about cutting systems from launch, I am not hopeful.

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6 minutes ago, mystafyi said:

Rolling out crowfall with combat half finished would be disasterous for the game. Sure ACE will make money and will help them promote their artisan engine, but the amount of folks that will leave quickly will be way above the 80% in the first month standard. Delaying game until all combat mechanics are done would be better for the game. Seeing how they are now at the point of publicly talking about cutting systems from launch, I am not hopeful.

He's talking about adding additional weapon options post-launch, not launching with combat half finished.


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12 minutes ago, miraluna said:

Agree with these comments, I bought into the idea of a "flattened power curve" because I feel like it's a critical design element to grow a playerbase and maintain on-going success of an open-world PvP-focused game. Competition, character building, and custom crafted gear are not at odds with this concept if balanced correctly.

We already have offline skills that you gain with time that will provide a power curve that has some power curve. The gear curve along with vessel curve added to the mix has gotten out of control. I am hoping that this trend is ending with the flattening of weapon power curve recently. 

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58 minutes ago, Tinnis said:

if we are going to talk FAQs, then i don't think they managed to be 'light on in combat healing' and 'avoid firehose healing' either 😜

I remember several topics about that back in the kickstarter days. A lot of people were really pushing to have meaningful healing in the game to separate roles and reward teamwork. I'm guessing more importance of the role of healing may have a lot to do with community feedback.

So I don't mind that too much since it shows they're responsive to the community.


"To hell with honor. Win."

A Beginner's Guide to Crowfall (5.8.5 Edition)

 

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1 hour ago, mystafyi said:

Rolling out crowfall with combat half finished would be disasterous for the game. Sure ACE will make money and will help them promote their artisan engine, but the amount of folks that will leave quickly will be way above the 80% in the first month standard. Delaying game until all combat mechanics are done would be better for the game. Seeing how they are now at the point of publicly talking about cutting systems from launch, I am not hopeful.

1.  How did you come up with that 80% in the first month figure?  

2. I meant added to what already exists. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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1 hour ago, Tinnis said:

if we are going to talk FAQs, then i don't think they managed to be 'light on in combat healing' and 'avoid firehose healing' either 😜

Oh god, healing is a topic that deserves its own thread and discussion lol. 

Healing and AoE as well. Healing is kind of in between atm. It's not fully firehose in the same sense you have in other MMOs (one healer keeping an entire raid alive by spamming his AoE heals), but at the same time it's still strong enough that you'd actually want to stack 2 healers in a group of 5 if you can. So the lack of any meaningful AoE damage outside of ballistas (rip aurora emitter, you're missed) and the lack of dedicated healer classes (there's like 2 and a half out of god knows how many promotion classes), plus a bunch of beneficial AoE ground effects, and we have this melee ball meta of classes that can self sustain without needing too much healing and can still dish out almost as much damage (if not as much) as a squishy dps class. It's all champs and myrms out there, with a couple healers and a knight for chain pulls. 🤣

Honestly this would be the time for the Archdruid to shine. Increase the explosion radius of his orb bombs from 4.5m to 6 or 7m, and give him aurora emitter back, with a buff to its damage. I'd play that 😍

Also another reason why I'd really like the Dregs to have that same 5-man group wide friendly fire that Big World used to have. Otherwise it's just going to be the same zergball spamfest from factions, except as alliances instead. 


 

 

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20 minutes ago, Rikutatis said:

Oh god, healing is a topic that deserves its own thread and discussion lol. 

Healing and AoE as well. Healing is kind of in between atm. It's not fully firehose in the same sense you have in other MMOs (one healer keeping an entire raid alive by spamming his AoE heals), but at the same time it's still strong enough that you'd actually want to stack 2 healers in a group of 5 if you can. So the lack of any meaningful AoE damage outside of ballistas (rip aurora emitter, you're missed) and the lack of dedicated healer classes (there's like 2 and a half out of god knows how many promotion classes), plus a bunch of beneficial AoE ground effects, and we have this melee ball meta of classes that can self sustain without needing too much healing and can still dish out almost as much damage (if not as much) as a squishy dps class. It's all champs and myrms out there, with a couple healers and a knight for chain pulls. 🤣

Honestly this would be the time for the Archdruid to shine. Increase the explosion radius of his orb bombs from 4.5m to 6 or 7m, and give him aurora emitter back, with a buff to its damage. I'd play that 😍

Also another reason why I'd really like the Dregs to have that same 5-man group wide friendly fire that Big World used to have. Otherwise it's just going to be the same zergball spamfest from factions, except as alliances instead. 

Healing is only an issue because there are zero anti healing that scale.  Assassin doesn’t work, plague lord isn’t strong enough and honestly there should be another disc so people aren’t forced into one. It’s hard to see if a mechanic works if the counter to it doesn’t. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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14 minutes ago, mystafyi said:

Superdata  https://www.superdataresearch.com/understanding-mmo-retention/

That is based upon F2P payment model. I would imagine B2P and Subscription based would be higher. I have not seen data showing the different payment model catagories.

Why would you assume that?


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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13 hours ago, Rikutatis said:

Honestly this would be the time for the Archdruid to shine. Increase the explosion radius of his orb bombs from 4.5m to 6 or 7m, and give him aurora emitter back, with a buff to its damage. I'd play that 😍

 

1

I fully support this comment.
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38 minutes ago, Brightdance said:

I fully support this comment.
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There should be more than one stack buster though.  If there’s only one that one becomes required.  There’s already enough meta problems with 3/30 available specs being healers and every group needing at least one and pref 2. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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