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Rikutatis

Seasoned characters vs New Players (FAQ discussion)

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1 hour ago, DocHollidaze said:

 

It's weird, I've come to observe the exact same phenomena you have and yet the conclusion I came to is that I should strive to form groups up with classes that synergize to do what we need to accomplish.

That's a fancy way of saying to only play like 25% of the specs in the game.

1 hour ago, DocHollidaze said:

Are you advocating that people should be able to win with any group comp as long as they have better gear?

No.

1 hour ago, DocHollidaze said:

I'm sure it was no accident that you use the negatively connoted term "slave" but I think it would be more appropriate to suggest that some players are more interesting in being successful in their efforts rather than looking cool or playing whatever they want at any time.

A lot of the people I've talked to don't actually enjoy feeling forced to play meta classes and feeling like they have to run double healer. Why bother having the other 75% of promotion classes?

1 hour ago, DocHollidaze said:

Are you salty that you can't win every fight as fae assassin? Or that chaos can't win every campaign with 75% of the players being fae assassins? Because damn that is sure what it feels like from my point of view, and is half the reason I roam as a ranger lately.

No.

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"That's a fancy way of saying to only play like 25% of the specs in the game."

No, it's almost as if whatever you are doing at the moment in the game might require a different setup depending on how many people you have with you, where you are at terrain/map-wise, and what you are trying to do.

When you are ganking in valleys all day like you do, why don't you do it with a confessor?

"A lot of the people I've talked to don't actually enjoy feeling forced to play meta classes and feeling like they have to run double healer. Why bother having the other 75% of promotion classes?"

I mean, there are folks who play Overwatch that refuse to switch off of Hanzo and Widow, can't really say that means the people who play useful picks during matches should be considered slaves to meta. They are more interested in winning and playing in an optimized group setup than fulfilling their adolescent fantasy of pretending to be a ninja.

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, DocHollidaze said:

"That's a fancy way of saying to only play like 25% of the specs in the game."

No, it's almost as if whatever you are doing at the moment in the game might require a different setup depending on how many people you have with you, where you are at terrain/map-wise, and what you are trying to do.

What situation would you use a Radical or Arbiter Cleric in?

Edited by ZYBAK

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Just now, ZYBAK said:

What situation would you use a Radical Cleric in?

 

I see it as an alternative to leather confessor in terms of ranged elemental damage, maybe a little more tankiness with the mail. More useful against enemy group I suppose, not individuals, since it gets splash damage. But it has mana issues at least until 5.8.5

Do people using confessor instead make them slaves to meta?

You could have just as easily said veteran players like to play classes that work well in the majority of tactical situations they encounter.

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2 hours ago, DocHollidaze said:

 

If gear didn't have a noticeable impact on gameplay, not many people would bother crafting it. Then why would there ever be an in-game economy?

Players will grind or go to extraordinary lengths for a tiny 1% gain. It should have some effect, but like weapons recently were addressed, armor still needs a rework. In regards to ingame economy, I don't expect much of one to form until closer to beta. Future wipes we know will come tend to put a damper on that.

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2 minutes ago, mystafyi said:

Players will grind or go to extraordinary lengths for a tiny 1% gain. It should have some effect, but like weapons recently were addressed, armor still needs a rework. In regards to ingame economy, I don't expect much of one to form until closer to beta. Future wipes we know will come tend to put a damper on that.

 

Well, some players will. I would not say that is a universal. All the complaints about gear imbalance between factions would suggest some players are more willing to put in the effort than others, even with the reward is substantial. Reduce the reward significantly and I suspect even fewer will put in the effort - hence no demand for crafters unless they just make gear lootable on death.

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6 minutes ago, DocHollidaze said:

 unless they just make gear lootable on death.

I was originally hoping for this. I would simply love being able to loot paperdoll in some way. I realize this would have to have some rng or restrictions and would need resource requirements to craft gear to be much lower. 

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Posted (edited)
45 minutes ago, ZYBAK said:

What situation would you use a Radical or Arbiter Cleric in?  

Radical cleric and Arbiter are bad examples of your point; they aren’t played because they have a bunch of design problems. 

 

1.  The radical cleric has a severe mana problem that’s being addressed (can’t tell if it fixes it though) on test that’s not on live.  It currently can’t sustain its own mana long enough to cycle through a full rotation of CD’s Bc the it seems as though it’s mana reduction talent doesn’t work on live.  

2.  Radical has a custarded up skill tree.  It was recently swapped to all fire damage but 1h hammers still use crushing damage in their trees.

3.  There is no variance in its build; it’s clearly not finished.  

When radical works I suspect it will be an excellent aoe sustained damage class but with funky trees, it’s severe mana problems and lack of variance for what it can do it’s just bad.  It’s soul power ability/ult is an excellent dbl use aoe damage / cc ability and it brings a fair amount of single target blind/holy damage from its capstone passive.  

 

Arbiter is in a bad place too but very different reasons.  Resolve custards CC builds to the point of them just being bad.  Is it dps? A healer?  It looks like a copy of a poorly designed discipline priest from wow.  It needs to be defined more by the devs.  Is it a light healer that does some dps?  Is it a light dps that does some healing?

 

These classes arent played in the major guilds because they aren’t finished or bad.  If and when they work they will have a place in the meta but they don’t and the shouldn’t until then.  Most of the ranged in the game are behind their melee  bruiser counterparts and they (Blair and Halashace) need to eventually make a wide balance sweep but we are still missing a class, core mechanics that drive pvp, a crafting over haul, runic weapons, performance issues and I distinctly remember @jtoddcoleman promising us water because it’s his favorite in game mechanic and it belongs in ever MMO.  Okay, maybe not the last one but everything else is true.  

Edited by mandalore

40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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14 minutes ago, mystafyi said:

I was originally hoping for this. I would simply love being able to loot paperdoll in some way. I realize this would have to have some rng or restrictions and would need resource requirements to craft gear to be much lower. 

And the time to craft would need to drop and the time invested to even be able to craft stuff would need to go way way down. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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16 minutes ago, DocHollidaze said:

 All the complaints about gear imbalance between factions would suggest some players are more willing to put in the effort than others, even with the reward is substantial. 

I wanted to comment on this since I feel this is simply a symptom of  being in pre-alpha. Many players will not put in a lot of effort to grind and craft at this stage. They will however pop in to play around with the combat mechanics for periods of time while waiting for new iterations to be released. Die hard fans of this game will ofc have massive advantages during these phases of the game.

The only thing I worry about is new players popping in to test out a pvp game in pre-alpha (after paying to do so) and getting beat up by gear/levels/vessels/ect and not skill/knowledge. It can put a bad taste in new players mouths since its pre-alpha, they were excited about "playing to crush" after reading the website and purchasing the game to check it out. Gear curve should be very shallow and gains in skills/levels should be extremely fast at this stage of game development.

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10 minutes ago, mandalore said:

And the time to craft would need to drop and the time invested to even be able to craft stuff would need to go way way down. 

Luckily these things are easy to modify. Other then having to create mechanics to allow paperdoll looting the rest are database variables. I am not sure I want to go back to UO days. Running around in death robes with a heavy bow and a handful of reagents got a bit silly. 

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Just now, mystafyi said:

Luckily these things are easy to modify. Other then having to create mechanics to allow paperdoll looting the rest are database variables. I am not sure I want to go back to UO days. Running around in death robes with a heavy bow and a handful of reagents got a bit silly. 

I don’t think full loot will work with how complicated loot is in CF.  It takes half a dozen people to harvest and craft any decent peice of gear and that’s a lot of work to just have it go away on death. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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10 minutes ago, mandalore said:

I don’t think full loot will work with how complicated loot is in CF.  It takes half a dozen people to harvest and craft any decent peice of gear and that’s a lot of work to just have it go away on death. 

While I generally agree here, I would like to see how it would actually play out in-game in at least 1 campaign. Just to see how it actually interacts with the gameplay systems. I think with the amount of white mats harvesters are getting, and eventually factories, it wouldn't be too out of place to see full loot and most people running around in white/green gear and saving their high-quality gear for the really important fights. Which I personally wouldn't mind all that much and could enjoy assuming the crafting to combat loss ratio is decently balanced.

Could be a really fun risk/reward mechanic and like I said, my guess is that it wouldn't work but would like to try it out once to see how it plays out.

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6 minutes ago, Jjusticar said:

While I generally agree here, I would like to see how it would actually play out in-game in at least 1 campaign. Just to see how it actually interacts with the gameplay systems. I think with the amount of white mats harvesters are getting, and eventually factories, it wouldn't be too out of place to see full loot and most people running around in white/green gear and saving their high-quality gear for the really important fights. Which I personally wouldn't mind all that much and could enjoy assuming the crafting to combat loss ratio is decently balanced.

Could be a really fun risk/reward mechanic and like I said, my guess is that it wouldn't work but would like to try it out once to see how it plays out.

Who has the bank space to save multiple sets of gear?  


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, mandalore said:

Who has the bank space to save multiple sets of gear?  

I thought the devs talked about adding in multiple forms of storage like guild banks and chests and stuff. Is that not a thing they are planning anymore? 

But that is a point I had not thought of, on top of current item bloat with all the different resources. I'm sure if it became an issue we could figure out a good and decent way to solve it however.

Edited by Jjusticar

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7 hours ago, DocHollidaze said:

If gear didn't have a noticeable impact on gameplay, not many people would bother crafting it. Then why would there ever be an in-game economy?

I see a big difference between design models for gear:

1. Linear gear progression -  this is the mmo themepark design. You make incremental progress over time in acquiring more powerful gear, with the goal of eventually acquiring best-in-slot items. You never lose gear, you only replace it with better items until the next expansion resets it all back to zero. Content is mostly designed around power levels (level-based questing zones, progression dungeon raids). IMO this design is not the best for economics or open-world PvP.

2. Supply and logistics - this is mmo sandbox design like Ultima Online, Star Wars Galaxies, and EVE, and other genres of games like Survival or Strategy. it's easier to acquire gear and easier to lose gear, with a flattened power curve and risk vs reward elements. The effort is based around maintaining a level of power over time, and is good for gameplay around resources, territory, crafting, economics, and PvP.

I expected Crowfall to fit the "Supply and Logistics" design because it makes the most sense for the kind of game it's intended to be. 


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5 hours ago, miraluna said:

I see a big difference between design models for gear:

1. Linear gear progression -  this is the mmo themepark design. You make incremental progress over time in acquiring more powerful gear, with the goal of eventually acquiring best-in-slot items. You never lose gear, you only replace it with better items until the next expansion resets it all back to zero. Content is mostly designed around power levels (level-based questing zones, progression dungeon raids). IMO this design is not the best for economics or open-world PvP.

2. Supply and logistics - this is mmo sandbox design like Ultima Online, Star Wars Galaxies, and EVE, and other genres of games like Survival or Strategy. it's easier to acquire gear and easier to lose gear, with a flattened power curve and risk vs reward elements. The effort is based around maintaining a level of power over time, and is good for gameplay around resources, territory, crafting, economics, and PvP.

I expected Crowfall to fit the "Supply and Logistics" design because it makes the most sense for the kind of game it's intended to be. 

even eso didnt have complete linear progression with its gear, yeah you wanted all orange gear but creating unique and effective builds is what kept you ahead and that theorycrafting omg i loved it, spent all 3 hours on my flight to Arizona planning different builds, and i do expect crowfall will be supply and logistics with the implementation of supply caravans


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56 minutes ago, Staff said:

creating unique and effective builds is what kept you ahead

Good point - that was a strength of Shadowbane as well. Character building + theorycrafting + changing metas is great PvP content, and requires lots of horizontal choices but does not need a steep power curve on gear.


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20 hours ago, miraluna said:

Good point - that was a strength of Shadowbane as well. Character building + theorycrafting + changing metas is great PvP content, and requires lots of horizontal choices but does not need a steep power curve on gear.

I wish the depth/complexity to character building in this design wasn't just superficial.

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On 3/17/2019 at 10:03 AM, DocHollidaze said:

If gear didn't have a noticeable impact on gameplay, not many people would bother crafting it. Then why would there ever be an in-game economy?

Having an impact is different than getting 30%+ healing received or base damage, on top of an extra 6k+ hit points, on top of 35%+ mitigations to damage, and the list goes on. The difference between a BiS geared character and some dude in whites or even god forbid, intermediate is just ridiculous for the original design goals of the game. Honestly intermediate gear should just be called "training gear" or something, to be made very clear to new players hopping onto the game that stuff it just garbage to get started and not something to really be taken seriously. 

You can still have a strong crafting economy without such a steep power curve in gear. There's other games that can be used as an example of that.

 

On 3/17/2019 at 11:54 AM, DocHollidaze said:

I mean, there are folks who play Overwatch that refuse to switch off of Hanzo and Widow, can't really say that means the people who play useful picks during matches should be considered slaves to meta. They are more interested in winning and playing in an optimized group setup than fulfilling their adolescent fantasy of pretending to be a ninja.

Funny you used Overwatch as an example, because that game pretty much died for doing certain things that are very similar to the direction CF is headed (Apex Legends was just the nail in the coffin, OW was already on life support before that).

Picking widow or hanzo in a low to mid rank game may look like throwing a match, because of how high both the floor and ceiling are on those heroes, but in the first few seasons of OW a highly skilled player picking widow for example could still outplay and beat her "counter" heroes like winston. Same for a match up between tracer and mccree for example, it was all mind games and big plays. There was a meta in the pro scene (dive) but player skill still trumped that. Koreans were widely known for being the most skilled players, and that was shown in many games where they went against a meta comp with oddball comps like junkrat back when he was pretty bad and still won because of individual plays.

After Ana every hero added to the hoster was some sort of "hard counter", CC heavy, power creep hero that pidgeonholed the game each time more into this sort of heavy healing melee ball ult combo GOATS meta that has dominated the game for ages. Skill matters a lot less now, to the point those same korean players can't really stand out anymore. The ceiling has dropped dramatically due to the hard counter spam heroes like Brigitte and the unbeatable meta. 

It's a class balance issue really, not just a "winning mentality" one. There was a very brief time in CF's pre-alpha (at the end of Big World, after myrm was finally nerfed and before rangerfall began), which was probably the most balanced combat had ever been in this game. Confessor was a little overpowered compared to the other classes, but that was mostly because of the huge AoE and good dmg it had, but it was still squishy and could be killed fast, so it wasn't too out of control. The only "mandatory" pick at that point was having one healer and one dps per group, everything else felt viable if played right. If you picked a second healer, you were losing on dps, so one healer was still a good call provided your healer could stay alive. Each class had some definite pros and cons. Now in group play there's like a handful of specs that can pretty much carry you through any situation the game throws at you and puts your enemy at a severe disadvantage if they're also not playing those specs. 

 


 

 

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