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Rikutatis

Seasoned characters vs New Players (FAQ discussion)

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On 3/16/2019 at 7:10 PM, ZYBAK said:

The reality of class balance right now is that a mediocre skilled double healer group stacked with meta classes and builds is going to completely decimate a significantly better geared and skilled group.

IMO the most important factors for deciding a combat engagement atm are:

1) builds and comps first, so yea, agree with you there; 

2) comms and shot calling, due to how healing and AoE currently work target prioritization and some discipline is pretty important IMO. It is, IMO, why sometimes you see those 6v11 or similar videos (on top of a few other factors as well, ofc);

3) Gear. Maybe not as important as 1 and 2, but still pretty significant nonetheleess. It's easy for those of us who are always ahead in the power curve to dismiss how much of an impact all purple+ gear has on your stats when compared to newer players starting in whites and without jewels for example. 


 

 

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28 minutes ago, Rikutatis said:

 

It's a class balance issue really, not just a "winning mentality" one. 

 

 

I'm not debating the poor state of class balance. I took issue with Zybak's choice of language.

 

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On 3/17/2019 at 4:55 PM, miraluna said:

I see a big difference between design models for gear:

1. Linear gear progression -  this is the mmo themepark design. You make incremental progress over time in acquiring more powerful gear, with the goal of eventually acquiring best-in-slot items. You never lose gear, you only replace it with better items until the next expansion resets it all back to zero. Content is mostly designed around power levels (level-based questing zones, progression dungeon raids). IMO this design is not the best for economics or open-world PvP.

2. Supply and logistics - this is mmo sandbox design like Ultima Online, Star Wars Galaxies, and EVE, and other genres of games like Survival or Strategy. it's easier to acquire gear and easier to lose gear, with a flattened power curve and risk vs reward elements. The effort is based around maintaining a level of power over time, and is good for gameplay around resources, territory, crafting, economics, and PvP.

I expected Crowfall to fit the "Supply and Logistics" design because it makes the most sense for the kind of game it's intended to be. 

If you feel that CF has a steeper power curve than either SWG or EvE, then you had a very different experience from mine.

If you were a veteran SWG craftsmen, with deep stores of the highest rated materials to have spawned in the last 12-18 months, full crafting tapes, and access to the best loot only components, the things that you could make would put a new fully skilled craftsmen to shame. Stack the best armor, weapons, foods, meds, stims, doc & entertainer buffs on a solid character build and run as part of a good team that could work well together; 5 or so players could stand in Moenia and take all comers. Maybe you remember SamuriJack? He'd go solo against groups of pre-CU Jedi, and win.

In EvE, I'd AFK my Dominix against any T1 frigate, my drones would do the job solo without me ever pressing a button. Not that a Domi is anything special, it's only a tier 1 battleship. It wouldn't break the passive shield regen of a mediocre carrier, forget a titan.

If you have an end game player backed by the logistics of an entire guild, and a new player that geared himself in advanced whites made with crafting discs and no skills, how much difference can there be between them before it's too much?

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Posted (edited)

1v1 PvP is not where the worth of a newb is determined in EVE PvP. You might be able to afk pop a newb in a T1 frigate in a droneboat battleship but if you were fighting a that same newb in missile or gunboat we both know you wouldn't be applying that damage half as easily.

I was in a corporation in EVE that would bring people in, put them in a destroyer fit they could train in under 24 hours, and then swarm and anhilliate ships worth hundreds of times what were were flying. I had like a 99% ISK efficiency rating during my time flying with them.

While that's a very extreme example, the point is, if I'm leading an EVE fleet I'll take as  many newbs in frigates and destroyers as are willing to join my fleet because they can actually apply decent damage and the difficulty of tracking them can be a huge asset, that if the enemy focuses entirely on countering, they won't be able to counter the vets in my fleet as effectively.

A day one character in Crowfall is... far less effective unless you feed them gear, gold, etc. that proportionally is far more of an investment than handing some newby a frigate or destroyer in EVE. They won't really do much and they'll get deleted like they are nothing.

On the other hand, if you DO invest heavily into a newb they can be far more of a threat to a veteran player than a single destroyer is to a battleship or capital ship.

Also I've been playing about a week and already I am starting to win 1v1s and feel like I'm making meaningful contributions to group fights. However, while I've contributed a lot of resources to my guild and have certainly paid in a good portion of the value of what they have given me, I think they've still given me more than I've given them at this point, and I wouldn't be where I am without that.

Edited by Andius

"To hell with honor. Win."

A Beginner's Guide to Crowfall (5.8.5 Edition)

 

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Posted (edited)

The typical Eve U fight may be 1 to 100 isk, but it's 20 players to 1, a couple of those players are skilled, and if the target has a clue many of them go home in a pod. I've run with them, I know how it goes.

Short of pre-nerf Endless, how many CF players do you think would live through a 20-1 if the 20 had 1 experienced player among them, and the 19 were willing to follow?

Handing a new player all the skills and equipment they need and teaching them to be effective in a blaterCat may not be that big a deal to an EvE vet, but handing over a set of green gear and taking him on a gank isn't a big deal to a guild that's replacing member's blues with purples.

Edited by VaMei

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8 minutes ago, VaMei said:

The typical Eve U fight may be 1 to 100 isk, but it's 20 players to 1, a couple of those players are skilled, and if the target has a clue many of them go home in a pod. I've run with them, I know how it goes.

Short of pre-nerf Endless, how many CF players do you think would live through a 20-1 if the 20 had 1 experienced player among them, and the 19 were willing to follow?

organizing 19 inexperienced players is quite the feat 


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5 minutes ago, VaMei said:

The typical Eve U fight may be 1 to 100 isk, but it's 20 players to 1, a couple of those players are skilled, and if the target has a clue many of them go home in a pod. I've run with them, I know how it goes.

Short of pre-nerf Endless, how many CF players do you think would live through a 20-1 if the 20 had 1 experienced player among them, and the 19 were willing to follow?

@Endless has never been defeated. 

How did this turn into EvE hogwash the rest of us don’t understand.


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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Not EVE U. Was with a smaller corporation called New Edens Best when I got those kind of results. But 20 to 1 is also a bit of an overstatement if you're talking the number of destroyers it takes to chew through a larger ship.

With my blue cleric vessel in blue gear, if I had a blue alpha champion in blue gear fighting alongside me I'm guessing we could chew through far more white vessels with white gear than a logi and a battleship vs. 20 destroyers.


"To hell with honor. Win."

A Beginner's Guide to Crowfall (5.8.5 Edition)

 

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27 minutes ago, Andius said:

With my blue cleric vessel in blue gear, if I had a blue alpha champion in blue gear fighting alongside me I'm guessing we could chew through far more white vessels with white gear than a logi and a battleship vs. 20 destroyers.

That may be true, destroyers are monsters if they can put DPS on target before they fold like the tin can they are.

I still stand by my point; player for player, 1v1, 5v5, or 50v50, the power curve in EvE is far steeper than it is in CF. 

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On 3/13/2019 at 3:46 PM, Andius said:


What PvPers do want is some way to measure their success. Which is provided by the fact campaigns have win conditions. Real PvPers (Not bottom feeders who need their egos propped up by the fact their gear/level will enable them to make SOME kills) will have no issue getting into this game whether or not there is any stat disparity at all between white and purple gear so long as they have a way to measure whether they are winners or losers

True PvPers want PvP. A test of skills. What true pvpers want is a game that encourages PvP of all sorts. Talents, crafting and discs added to the skill factor and strategy. Rewards are for the weak 

I would like to see focus on getting class skills/items working properly. For instance knight ult slingshot or ranger quivers. Once it all works properly things can be balanced properly.

Common gear should be more viable. other than that rare -> legendary is not that big of a hurdle. Coordination takes more importance here  

Small vs large guild viability is completely up to the faction community. A small guild could focus on bringing in leather to the faction. We all know it’s a pita. For doing that more skilled crafters would lend their service to make their gear in exchange for supplies. The mechanics to make the game more noob/solo/small guild friendly already exist. Make it what you want it to be. Hundreds of scenarios you can come up with to make everyone viable. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, VaMei said:

That may be true, destroyers are monsters if they can put DPS on target before they fold like the tin can they are.

I still stand by my point; player for player, 1v1, 5v5, or 50v50, the power curve in EvE is far steeper than it is in CF. 

I think if you're comparing a week 1 or 2 player in Crowfall vs. a week 1 or 2 player in EVE in terms of their contributions to group fights that the Crowfall player is far stronger in comparison to their peers.

I think if you're comparing a day 1 player in Crowfall who's earned their own gear vs. a day 1 player in EVE who's earned their own gear that the EVE player is far stronger in comparison to their peers.

The least fun I had in this game is the 2nd day of leveling my blue vessel while I was still in white gear, when I needed to go to adventure zones to get good experience. Balance had them on such a level of lockdown that for the first hour or two I spent 10% of my time leveling, and 90% of it getting ganked or attempting to avoid getting ganked.

Eventually I decided that I could probably find a farming spot that wasn't overpopulated, did so, leveled the vessel, got it geared with the help of my guild, and the game has been fun ever since.

The problem is. I've played EVE, Darkfall, ArcheAge, Mortal Online etc. so I when the Chaos adventure zones were on total lockdown I had a good idea of alternate farming places that probably wouldn't be camped half as much. (I established it using a common rule that applies to PvP games that I'm not going to state here lest Balance camp the areas I was able to level in.)

I could see a lot of people reaching the point they need to farm in the contested area. Getting 3 shot a bunch of times and saying "this is why I never play PvP games" before uninstalling.

Edited by Andius

"To hell with honor. Win."

A Beginner's Guide to Crowfall (5.8.5 Edition)

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, oneply said:

Small vs large guild viability is completely up to the faction community. A small guild could focus on bringing in leather to the faction. We all know it’s a pita. For doing that more skilled crafters would lend their service to make their gear in exchange for supplies. The mechanics to make the game more noob/solo/small guild friendly already exist. Make it what you want it to be. Hundreds of scenarios you can come up with to make everyone viable. 

Yeah. Right now I think the current faction community is too split among guilds on Chaos at least. I don't trade with the rest of the Chaos, I feed resources to my guild and my guild supplies me with what I need. A guild that produces only leather would only have so much value because for the most part if a specific major guild is experiencing a leather shortage, they will start encouraging their own members to fill that need, and only deal with a leather focused guild as a last resort.

I think you might see that change if system changed so that guilds started to do most of their gathering in the vicinity of forts they control instead of all over the map. Mechanics like inventory weight, the complete and utter death of the current way spirit banks work right now, and more reason for a guild to make a fort their "base of operations" would probably help with this a ton as if guilds tend to stick to one location for prolonged periods of time they'll need to do more trade to get the resources that are scarce in that area.

 

Edited by Andius

"To hell with honor. Win."

A Beginner's Guide to Crowfall (5.8.5 Edition)

 

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On 3/19/2019 at 5:50 PM, Andius said:

Yeah. Right now I think the current faction community is too split among guilds on Chaos at least. I don't trade with the rest of the Chaos, I feed resources to my guild and my guild supplies me with what I need. A guild that produces only leather would only have so much value because for the most part if a specific major guild is experiencing a leather shortage, they will start encouraging their own members to fill that need, and only deal with a leather focused guild as a last resort.

I think you might see that change if system changed so that guilds started to do most of their gathering in the vicinity of forts they control instead of all over the map. Mechanics like inventory weight, the complete and utter death of the current way spirit banks work right now, and more reason for a guild to make a fort their "base of operations" would probably help with this a ton as if guilds tend to stick to one location for prolonged periods of time they'll need to do more trade to get the resources that are scarce in that area.

 

The leather guild was just a random example. And would probably be better for a much larger population. 

Really like the second paragraph. But that would require no zone caps and more optimized servers. I think that would generate a lot more quality PvP too. 

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Posted (edited)
On 3/19/2019 at 5:01 PM, oneply said:

True PvPers want PvP. A test of skills.

If any part of your argument starts with "True <insert type of person playing a video game>" You are making a statement of opinion rather than fact, and by ranking your ideal scenario as "true" you are confusing your own subjective opinion with objective fact.

The difference between those two camps is only whether people behave like you think they should. it has very little to do with how people actually behave.

There is no such thing as a "true pvper"

How people actually behave varies from person to person with myriad and highly personal goal structures that range from proving personal skill to demoralizing opponents, to making memes, to getting as much loot as possible, and a million other objectives. All of those things coexist in this type of game. None of them are less "true" than the other. Many people aren't concerned with a test of skill in their pvp mmos. Most of the people that win them in fact.

Edited by PopeUrban

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Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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4 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

If any part of your argument starts with "True <insert type of person playing a video game>" You are making a statement of opinion rather than fact, and by ranking your ideal scenario as "true" you are confusing your own subjective opinion with objective fact.

The difference between those two camps is only whether people behave like you think they should. it has very little to do with how people actually behave.

There is no such thing as a "true pvper"

How people actually behave varies from person to person with myriad and highly personal goal structures that range from proving personal skill to demoralizing opponents, to making memes, to getting as much loot as possible, and a million other objectives. All of those things coexist in this type of game. None of them are less "true" than the other. Many people aren't concerned with a test of skill in their pvp mmos. Most of the people that win them in fact.

I win every time @JamesGoblin likes my post.  

I think skill is subjective and in CF being good at the pvp mechanics mean a lot less than being good at all of the things that contribute to winning.  You need numbers, leadership. Logistics, theory crafters, harvesters, crafters, AN ELITE FORUM WARRIOR, planners, thinkers and being good at the mechanics of the game are nice but not required. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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