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Frykka

Anti-blob mechanic vs anti-zerg mechanic.

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, blazzen said:

The number of each type of class doesn't necessarily mean it'll be an equal split for what people actually play.

Take healers for example. 

3/30 promotions = 10%. 

Actual healer % is probably closer to 30-40%. 

That only helps my point though.  19 melee aren’t healers, 8 ranged aren’t healers (two of which are ranged dps/healer hybrids).  

Edited by mandalore

40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

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1 minute ago, mandalore said:

That only helps my point though.  19 melee aren’t healers, 8 ranged aren’t healers (two of which are ranged dps/healer hybrids).  

No, I think you missed my point. 

My point was....just because there's only a handful of ranged DPS Specs doesn't mean that people won't swap to them if ranged AoE is viable in sieges. 

Ideally you get a pretty even split of healer, ranged and melee. 

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Just now, blazzen said:

No, I think you missed my point. 

My point was....just because there's only a handful of ranged DPS Specs doesn't mean that people won't swap to them if ranged AoE is viable in sieges. 

Ideally you get a pretty even split of healer, ranged and melee. 

My whole point is the melee ball seems intentional bc of the flooding of melee classes in the game and the dilution of ranged.  The fact that one hard counter rune shuts down almost every range class tells me they intentionally want a melee heavy game.  If 66% of the game has an 8m range or less then I expect most of the fighting will be done at 8m or less. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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9 minutes ago, mandalore said:

My whole point is the melee ball seems intentional bc of the flooding of melee classes in the game and the dilution of ranged.  The fact that one hard counter rune shuts down almost every range class tells me they intentionally want a melee heavy game.  If 66% of the game has an 8m range or less then I expect most of the fighting will be done at 8m or less. 

It wasn't too long ago that everyone and their brother were rangers plucking people from 90m at 1000 dmg per shot. I've been around long enough to see the swings in meta. 

I think the problem is they balance with a sledge hammer instead of a scalpel. 

 

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4 minutes ago, blazzen said:

It wasn't too long ago that everyone and their brother were rangers plucking people from 90m at 1000 dmg per shot. I've been around long enough to see the swings in meta. 

I think the problem is they balance with a sledge hammer instead of a scalpel. 

 

I played rangerfall too.  You could be a powerful archer back then, you can't anymore. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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7 minutes ago, blazzen said:

It wasn't too long ago that everyone and their brother were rangers plucking people from 90m at 1000 dmg per shot. I've been around long enough to see the swings in meta. 

I think the problem is they balance with a sledge hammer instead of a scalpel. 

 

I forgot to add they took ranger and made 2/3 of its promotion paths melee. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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11 minutes ago, mandalore said:

I played rangerfall too.  You could be a powerful archer back then, you can't anymore. 

It's because aiming is so easy even from 90m it might as well be tab target.

So their only choices were to lower the damage and/or range. And they did what they normally do and nerf both of them too much. Range got a bit of a boost in a recent update. I think quivers are still broken though. 

Hopefully some of the improvements in the 5.9 character controller might let us have tighter aiming and thus longer ranged attacks again. Not having "difficulty to land ability" as a knob in the balance formula has been hurting the variety in combat for a while now. It's why CC is so neutered also. If CC abilities were hard to land then we wouldn't need such powerful retaliates because it would be a lot harder to lock someone up. 

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5 minutes ago, blazzen said:

It's because aiming is so easy even from 90m it might as well be tab target.

So their only choices were to lower the damage and/or range. And they did what they normally do and nerf both of them too much. Range got a bit of a boost in a recent update. I think quivers are still broken though. 

Hopefully some of the improvements in the 5.9 character controller might let us have tighter aiming and thus longer ranged attacks again. Not having "difficulty to land ability" as a knob in the balance formula has been hurting the variety in combat for a while now. It's why CC is so neutered also. If CC abilities were hard to land then we wouldn't need such powerful retaliates because it would be a lot harder to lock someone up. 

The problem with heavy hitting abilities that are hard to aim are people hacking (aimbot).

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Posted (edited)

I’m for the Keep It Simple Stupid method...

  1. Increase some AoEs so they hit more targets...
    1. Ranger’s Barrage and Dagger Spin increased from 5 to 10 targets
    2. Assassin’s Dagger Spin increased from 5 to 10 targets
    3. Druid’s Aura Emitter increased from 5 to 10 targets
    4. Templar’s Divine Light increased from 5 to 7 targets
    5. Duelist’s Pepperbox Shot and Go For Broke increased from 3 to 5 targets
    6. Myrmidon’s Whirlwind increased from 5 to 7 targets
    7. Cleric’s Hand of Gods increased from 5 to 7 targets
  2. Increase the damage of some AoEs so folks are forced to spread out
    1. Druid’s Aura Emitter increased by 20%
    2. Assassin and Ranger’s Dagger Spin increased by 20%
    3. Ranger’s Barrage increased by 20%

 

Edited by Gradishar

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Marth said:

The problem with heavy hitting abilities that are hard to aim are people hacking (aimbot).

Yeah it's a double edged sword.

Server verify everything which causes combat to be so desynced and clunky that aiming has to be so forgiving that nobody would ever need to hack. 

Or make it precise and require good aim which typically requires putting more on the client and then you'll have to deal with the occasional hacker. 

I'd take dealing with the occasional hacker than having clunky combat all of the time.

I came from Darkfall - plenty of hackers there because Aventurine never even bothered to implement anti-cheat AFAIK. 

I hear ACE knows how to swing a ban hammer so they'll just need to implement some anti-cheat and keep that ban hammer at the ready. Because of the PASSIVE training in Crowfall an account ban would be devastating so I think it would be a pretty strong deterrent. 

I absolutely loved that DF2 had a website dedicated to everyone they banned and the reason why they were banned. Think it was unholybanhammer.com - I believe the relaunch of Mortal Online is treating hackers the same way with public shaming. 

Edited by blazzen
passive training

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3 hours ago, Gradishar said:

I’m for the Keep It Simple Stupid method...

  1. Increase some AoEs so they hit more targets...
    1. Ranger’s Barrage and Dagger Spin increased from 5 to 10 targets
    2. Assassin’s Dagger Spin increased from 5 to 10 targets
    3. Druid’s Aura Emitter increased from 5 to 10 targets
    4. Templar’s Divine Light increased from 5 to 7 targets
    5. Duelist’s Pepperbox Shot and Go For Broke increased from 3 to 5 targets
    6. Myrmidon’s Whirlwind increased from 5 to 7 targets
    7. Cleric’s Hand of Gods increased from 5 to 7 targets
  2. Increase the damage of some AoEs so folks are forced to spread out
    1. Druid’s Aura Emitter increased by 20%
    2. Assassin and Ranger’s Dagger Spin increased by 20%
    3. Ranger’s Barrage increased by 20%

 

and arch druid bomb from 5 to 10 people too!  =D

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13 minutes ago, Medicaid said:

and arch druid bomb from 5 to 10 people too!  =D

That's the only power I'm not so sure about lol. 

Main reason being pretty much all of the other AoEs are lower damage that pulses in one way or another. Druid bombs are large amounts of direct/instant damage from range. It would work if blight converted orbs into a damaging/pulsing AoE and did more damage the more orbs it consumed.   

Not going to dive too deep into druid bombs again though cause the druid community tried to lynch me last time.

 

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Each bomb has a 5 yard 5 man cap. The trick to it is to get 10-15 bombs hitting 1 person with a tight grouping. 

It is way way way harder than the videos make it look.  So many bombing sessions are just fizzles due to people moving, q'ing blocking or dodging. And if you are dropping 15 - 20 bombs you are talking about zero return for 30+ seconds of setup. 

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Posted (edited)
On 3/17/2019 at 5:15 PM, mandalore said:

I think this is all a symptom of small guilds disliking the fact that they are out numbered.  The numbers we see now are small.  If this game is going to make it it’s going to need to be able to field lots of people at major fights.  

Not at all, it has nothing to do with zerg or small group size of a guild...  we will get alliance mechanisms to match forces...   if you are outnumbered vs a blob it doesn't matter much....  

If you are matched at 50 v 50 with group comps by 5s, what is more fun and more tactical, allowing the blob ups that mostly create a giant emperor penguin in winter body block which leave knight pull and force mage push as the only target separators from the safety of the blob OR spreading that blob out even a bit more with a confined spaces progressive debuff penalty.

 

Edited by Frykka

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                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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Posted (edited)

The trouble with stronger aoe is that it doesn't scale with the battle size...   if you make AOE that strong then will be the forced meta once again.   10 v 10 isn't blobs nor is 20 v 20 really...   you can still see and aim at nearly every target.    Maybe a combination of a crowded debuff with an aoe damage split change.  I think if it is possible to engineer and test a proximity debuff, we have proximity buffs, we should do so.   We are testing things.   There has been some good success but we don't get to push this out the door without it being right.  We know we can dial aoe back up but is that the correct and only solution to stacking/blobbing.   

Edited by Frykka

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                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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17 minutes ago, Frykka said:

Not at all, it has nothing to do with zerg or small group size of a guild...  we will get alliance mechanisms to match forces...   if you are outnumbered vs a blob it doesn't matter much....  

If you are matched at 50 v 50 with group comps by 5s, what is more fun and more tactical, allowing the blob ups that mostly create a giant emperor penguin in winter body block which leave knight pull and force mage push as the only target separators from the safety of the blob OR spreading that blob out even a bit more with a confined spaces progressive debuff penalty.

 

The blob melee meta is a reflection of the fact that it’s 20 melee vs 10 ranged specs.  The game is flooded with melee.  If 66% of the game has an 8m range or less than most of the game will be fought at 8m or less.  


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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2 minutes ago, mandalore said:

The blob melee meta is a reflection of the fact that it’s 20 melee vs 10 ranged specs.  The game is flooded with melee.  If 66% of the game has an 8m range or less than most of the game will be fought at 8m or less.  

This is true, but doesn't address the larger blob.  Does it change mass body blocking in 50 v 50?...  ranged stay in/near the blob too.   Only stealthed classes, useless in siege situations avoid the blob.   It isn't either or and it is an across the board cancelling mechanic...   blob up tight and your ability to knock off targets is diminished while still exposing you to effective aoe if your target spreads tactically for the mechanic.    Chokepoints have upsides and downsides for both sides...   open field battles change to a more dynamic front given closer to equal forces.

 


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                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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30 minutes ago, Frykka said:

This is true, but doesn't address the larger blob.  Does it change mass body blocking in 50 v 50?...  ranged stay in/near the blob too.   Only stealthed classes, useless in siege situations avoid the blob.   It isn't either or and it is an across the board cancelling mechanic...   blob up tight and your ability to knock off targets is diminished while still exposing you to effective aoe if your target spreads tactically for the mechanic.    Chokepoints have upsides and downsides for both sides...   open field battles change to a more dynamic front given closer to equal forces.

 

My point is I think the blob is purposeful and designed that way.  Why else would there be so many 8m range classes?  Why else would so many keeps/forts/assets be designed with so many choke points?  


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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