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Samulus

Class Balance - Needed Sooner Rather Than Later?

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The wife and I have kinda fizzled out on playing/testing for the time being, mainly in anticipation for 5.9 and the presence of bugs that we at least see as things that need to be fixed before we spend anymore time on it. I'm not going to go in depth on the whole list, but I will hit on the class balance issue. 

There are certain classes that have had the same broken skills/talents since we signed around the New Year, and then there are even more, a whole slew in fact, of skills/talents/entire branches (not necessarily discipline-based) that aren't worthwhile or effective by a huge margin. Combine this with the current guild-driven tryharding during campaigns that are, for the most part, the same from week to week (not really testing anything different from campaign to campaign unless a patch happens to hit -- 2 weeks is a pretty long interval to not crank some dials in between) and things get stale. You could really boil down what I mean with this paragraph with one sentence: for at least me, the game isn't developed enough to be interesting for very long in the current environment, and testing/providing feedback on things but seeing little to no progress gives a very futile feeling at the end of the day. 

With all of this in mind, would it be possible to start balancing classes now, or would that stress the ol' team out too much? I totally understand the consensus that ACE won't "balance until we have systems online" so it can be more efficiently done, but we have a lot of breadth within the class system that we're really not seeing in the game at the moment. For folks like us that like to test builds and build combinations, it's pretty sparse for the moment... At least fixing obviously malfunctioning skills or mechanics would go a long way. 

I guess my problem really has this root: I like testing, and up until recently I enjoy playing the game. It has huge potential and I'm not writing CF off or anything, but testing and not enjoying doing so makes you log off really quickly - especially when you keep seeing the same problems. Maybe my scope is too limited in "what I like to test", but it's totally within my power to pick and choose since I'm paying to test things lol. 

What do you guys think? There are a lot of other systems and mechanics being focused on at the moment, which is A OK. Does the current "meta" (hilarious to call it a meta with so many bugs/broken things in the game that people have to avoid or are able to take advantage of) help that process, or does it skew your data? I honestly don't know the answer to that. I may just need to shut my mouth and wait for 5.9 or 6.0... Would love to know the timetable on those though. 

 

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Eh if you’re burned out then go do you and when you come back we will all be here still.  Ain’t no shame in needing a break from pre alpha.  It’s not even remotely close to finish so that can be frustrating and that’s okay. 

 

The only thing I’d advise is to hedge your expectations about players.  People will do anything to win at all stages of development.  I feel if people are overwhelmed by the 60 or so try hard players playing now then the game is going to legitimately suck for those same people when there’s hundreds or thousands of people try Harding it.


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

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See, calling it "metagame" ("the game above the game") when actually fixing some of the borked class mechanics/skills would wildly shift it around really kinda gives the actual state of CF class balance too much credit. The fact that the term is being thrown around at this stage of development is humorous to me;  the "meta" is not some complicated culmination of experience with what works, it's a very simple few conclusions drawn from what race/class/disc combinations aren't bugged into uselessness/are broken or borderline exploits. Without balance being sought or established, it's hard to tell what should or should not be acceptable, so people roll whatever they can play CF most effectively with. 

The earlier part of what you said though I guess I can agree with lol... But I likewise would have rather they put off the recent wartribes addition until we got 5.9... That patch has been pretty much done, "waiting for the train [5.8 talent tree update] to clear the station" (JTC's quote from January) per ACE. 

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1 hour ago, Samulus said:

 wait for 5.9 or 6.0... Would love to know the timetable on those though. 

 

Each 5.X is about 6 months on average so...hurry and wait is an appropriate slogan. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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4 minutes ago, mandalore said:

Eh if you’re burned out then go do you and when you come back we will all be here still.  Ain’t no shame in needing a break from pre alpha.  It’s not even remotely close to finish so that can be frustrating and that’s okay. 

 

The only thing I’d advise is to hedge your expectations about players.  People will do anything to win at all stages of development.  I feel if people are overwhelmed by the 60 or so try hard players playing now then the game is going to legitimately suck for those same people when there’s hundreds or thousands of people try Harding it.

I'm torn though, I want to help support the game, but I don't to burn out in the process. I have no problem with taking a break, but I would be perfectly entertained if I felt I was making an impact. But maybe I'm not making an impact, that would be OK too, I just wish I had an indication of that if it were the case lol.

I can respectfully say that you are probably my favorite tryhard in the bunch, Mandalore. I don't see the terminology as a bad thing necessarily, but maybe it is mainly offensive. 

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Just now, Samulus said:

I'm torn though, I want to help support the game, but I don't to burn out in the process. I have no problem with taking a break, but I would be perfectly entertained if I felt I was making an impact. But maybe I'm not making an impact, that would be OK too, I just wish I had an indication of that if it were the case lol.

I can respectfully say that you are probably my favorite tryhard in the bunch, Mandalore. I don't see the terminology as a bad thing necessarily, but maybe it is mainly offensive. 

I’m a loud voice on the boards but I’ve made 1 siege in 21 days and I mostly play during the day right now.  I’m on every day for morning and afternoon stuff though.  I won’t be in the top 30% for balance and I’ve been rather fortunate that my guild lets me test whatever I want.  I dig graves when I can to help Monchiezze out though. 

 

I will be a try hard when there’s more to test but it’s hard for me to commit family time to testing.  


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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Would like to see other campaign modes myself. Maybe some small ones to just test out various things. A map with lots of war tribes to see how they work, turn off imports/exports for it and see what affect it will have early game. Turn on imports later or on another map to see late game. Race wars, class wars, FFA (team) or even a siege map with near constant up time. Bonus points if you can manage to keep teams semi equal. Heck a zone with NPCs attacking or defending a fort/keep just to see if its plausible. Has there been a map with no import/exports?

Faction wars are not really adding much imo. Already down to 2 factions with both sides getting stuck in a routine. Balance 50ish mans two zones, chaos puts 75+ in one. Chaos sends people to attack, balance tries to zone cap where we left. Balance attacks, chaos moves to zone cap another keep. Both sides have tried to delay banes going down, then pile in once they defend a keep. In short the only way large siege fight are going to happen is if one side risks losing a keep. Dont think raising the zone limit would change it much. It would still be defend/destroy bane then pile into open zones. Just a matter of how many can pile in.

 

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Honestly and truly, take a break.

My entire guild peaced out for like a year and it was a net positive  at combatting burnout during a patch cycle we weren't having fun with. Its easy to get burned out in a development stage where literally none of your achievements matter.

its not like you can't log in briefly every 2 weeks for your shiny and run the new hotness on test for mugs.

There are tons of games to play, no sense in playing one that's not fun.

That said, even though I've been extremely vocal about certain class bugs ACE is gonna place priority where they feel its best for the game. currently that's finishing the entire economic loop since that's the context by which day to day play in a longer campaign is defined, and getting real deal data on player behavior while they work out the faction campaign reward structure.

I'd argue both of those things are more important priorities than fine tuning balance. Its really tough to see what players farm, how much, and how they fight each other if you're constantly upending class balance in a way that makes people want to reroll.

Economically at least there are strong reasons to farm most materials in a context that should theoretically be somewha representitive of release needs, and "the tryhards" are behaving like campaigns matter, which is important for accurately gauging macro level player behaviors when contronted with different scoring and reward models.

That might not be fun if your primary interest is messing about with builds the same way farming for gear wasn't fun for my guild when we took our break. It sucks but just as our farm eventually got fixed and we came back, the balance will get fixed and you'll come back for one feature and be energized by all the other little things that made their way to live in the time between.

At this stage of development its simply inevitable that someone's subjective favorite thing is gonna get passed over for a bit while core systems keep going online.


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Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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On 3/20/2019 at 6:13 PM, Samulus said:

... There are certain classes that have had the same broken skills/talents since we signed around the New Year, and then there are even more, a whole slew in fact, of skills/talents/entire branches (not necessarily discipline-based) that aren't worthwhile or effective by a huge margin ...
 

I feel the same way. But now they are starting this scarcity testing. What you mention about class balancing, coupled with the completely lackluster disciplines; be they broken or giving class functionality to specific classes, while making them worthless on other classes (archer disciplines anyone?), and add in that now they are moving minor disciplines to drops and making it harder to move and test stuff around. And now the game is too grindy and too broken to feel like playing until alpha when they decide frostweaver, class balance and bigger discipline pass warrants full attention.

My favorite class is Ranger and I'm disgusted with the state they've been in. And only now just getting a trickle of fixes which will probably break again in a new patch. My 2nd favorite is druid and having Gaia's Wail fail as much as it does, sucks. It's a very powerful skill when it hits. Blight? In the time it takes for them to explode, mobs will walk out of range of most of them!! 

So now in addition to these classes that need a lot of love, once the wipe happens, if I were to decide to make them, acquiring discs gonna be more painful. Let's not even mention how the passive slot issues for most classes. 90% of them need Demon's Pact. Promotion keystone passives should be granted free like Sanctifier Confessors. Is it a discipline choice when it's pretty much mandatory?

So I definitely feel the game is moving into a spot where it might be better to just wait for more of these systems to be put into game. 

 

 

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You do get that we are intended to farm disciplines right?  


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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In terms of development, do you guys have a backlog or record of bugs that we could have some view to? This could help in terms of seeing the priority of work and for the testers, seeing that an issue has already or hasn't been recorded. Could be password protected, etc. 

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