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Jjusticar

My Thoughts on Vandal

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I've been messing around on my Vandal the past couple days and I've been having a really good time of it. It's been a blast and has an interesting play-style that I really enjoy. However, I have a few problems with it that I think is holding it back from being a really cool promotion line. I'm going to ignore the fact that retaliate reduces the overall effectiveness of the class, similar to other CC promotions, by a ton and focus on the gameplay and talents that I think could use some changing.

Overall Thoughts:

I think the Vandal is stronger than a lot of people give it credit for right now. I can theorycraft different playstyle options and I think the talent line gives you quite a bit of choice in terms of what kind of playstyle you want to move towards with the overarching theme being single-target lockdown. However, in comparison to most other promotion lines you are gaining very little added damage or power with mostly just "fluff" nodes outside of double-down and blackout. 

Suggestions:

  • Flow State
    • I didn't mention Flow State in the line about "fluff" nodes above because I don't like the design of the talent. The talent really only gives you added power if you are going Poison toxin or Disease toxin. You gain little to no power what-so-ever if you go nature toxin, simply because the biggest point spender (and imo the biggest ability you want pips back for) is going to be Diffusion. However, even with refunded pips you can generate a full 5 pips within the CD that you would otherwise have been saving. I suppose it is helpful for discipline powers possibly not costing pips, but like I said above you can generate pips to fast that imo it's not that strong.
    • I'd personally like to see Flow State being taken off of the In The Zone pre-req, moved to the capstone, and be replaced by something else. I would suggest added effects to diffusion or added effects to your toxins, simply because it seems this is the line they are using for toxin changes (30% dmg bonus to toxins is boring btw). I just don't see this talent being useful or interesting in a lot of scenarios and builds.
  • Double Down
    • I'd like to see this apply the bleed even if you don't stun the target. With the amount of CC immunity and DR's within group combat it can be hard to get your damage off from this talent. Say you're in the middle of a kidney shot animation and a knight knocks down your target a half a second before or a champ presses neckbreaker, now you're stuck without your kidney shot for 20 seconds and you don't get a good chunk of your damage on the target. 
  • Yaga's Gift
    • I really like the concept of this capstone since cheat death mechanics are pretty fun and you can do some really cool plays with them. However, I think the overall power of this passive compared to other CC promotion classes is way too low. Fury for example getting crazy HP stacking for their CC's, Barbarian and Sentinel getting straight up 15% dmg bonus and 25% movespeed, Conqueror getting a -15% crit defense debuff. They all fulfill the "getting stronger as you lockdown enemies" fantasy.
    • I don't think it needs to be changed at all, maybe lower CD, but personally I feel like it fits better on Cutthroat or Blackguard promotion lines. I would like to see something different. Something which doubles down on the promotion theme of being a single-target lockdown class. I'm not sure what, off the top of my head something like: Each successful CC against an enemy grants 100AP and reduces the CD of your other CC abilities by 2 seconds. 

In Conclusion:

I really like the Vandal. I think it's a fun promotion to mess around with and the toxins really open up a lot of playstyles. But, I would like to see some polishing up of the talents and inject a little more theme fantasy into the promotion. I think Flow State and Yaga's Gift are both somewhat out of place for this promotion line, though I wouldn't say no to Flow State being baseline for Vandal. The strongest thing Vandal has going for it at the moment is Cheap shot and suppression on backstab. Cheap Shot does the job of burning a targets retaliate to set up a crazy long CC chain between Kidney Shot and Backstab, which I think is awesome. You can do some really cheeky stuff with Q power/Cheap Shot combos. A little more sanding and refining of the promotion fantasy and I think Vandal could really stand out as an awesome and strong promotion to run for yourself and for your group. 

What do you guys think of the Vandal so far?

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A number of weeks ago I rolled a Vandal and liked it a lot. Saw a good amount of potential, loved the way it synergizes with Black Mask, and am eager to see some kind of change to CC or CC specs to boost their viability overall (they can be fun to play currently but their utility is ham-stringed IMO).


Hi, I'm moneda.

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Posted (edited)

I haven't played the Vandal, but I keep looking at ways that it might work... and walking away because of known issues.

1st, I think ACE really needs to resolve the issues of CC discrepancy between large and small scale combat. Without addressing the scale of combat, either front line units are going to be perma CCd, or CC based skirmishers are going to remain broken.

2nd, for the moment, leather is just bad. Having all mitigation and more than half of health coming from a single sliding scale means being at the bottom of that scale, with no bonuses for being there, is just broken.

3rd, it seems to me that the capstones for Vandal and Blackguard are swapped; the poison bonused Vandal should get Poisoner's Paradise as a self heal and CC as damage avoidance, while the Blackguard should have mail and the shield when things are going well and Yaga's for when they don't.

I think both promotions were badly diluted by the loss of weapon mastery. Mace mastery gave Vandal an additional stun, and axe mastery gave Blackguard an armor break. I would happily trade that extra combat disc to get axe mastery back.

Edited by VaMei

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16 minutes ago, VaMei said:

2nd, for the moment, leather is just bad. Having all mitigation and more than half of health coming from a single sliding scale means being at the bottom of that scale, with no bonuses for being there, is just broken.

Definitely agree. Only reason I didn't add it in is because I was trying to focus more on the mechanics and talents within the Vandal tree. I am hoping, however, that the armor changes will even this issue out. That being said, I have still found success in both solo and group fights...but for how patient you have to play for the exact right opportunity so you don't die instantly when you open makes it super tough.

18 minutes ago, VaMei said:

3rd, it seems to me that the capstones for Vandal and Blackguard are swapped; the poison bonused Vandal should get Poisoner's Paradise as a self heal and CC as damage avoidance, while the Blackguard should have mail and the shield when things are going well and Yaga's for when they don't.

This is somewhat what I was thinking as well. However, even still that capstone is imo much weaker than comparable CC class capstones. Plus I really don't think Vandal will have the HP pool for lifestealing to be a reasonable means of sustain or suvival since it's a pretty low % and most classes will be able to burst you down way before you get any meaningful healing. 

 

20 minutes ago, VaMei said:

I think both promotions were badly diluted by the loss of weapon mastery. Mace mastery gave Vandal a additional stun, and axe mastery gave Blackguard an armor break. I would happily trade that extra combat disc to get axe mastery back.

100% this. When I came back after my break and saw promotions before seeing the weapon discs were removed I had tons of ideas for builds and interactivity between abilities. So definitely agree with you on this one. 

 

22 minutes ago, moneda said:

and am eager to see some kind of change to CC or CC specs to boost their viability overall (they can be fun to play currently but their utility is ham-stringed IMO).

Waiting for this too. Really hoping we can see some decent changes in this area.

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I played a vandal for a campaign several campaigns ago. I found it to be enjoyable and could with a few tweaks be a very solid profession. As many have said Blackguard and Vandal need to switch capstones. Second and biggest issue is leather thus why I rolled a Blackguard even though I really dislike the playstyle. Once armor is improved and CC tweaked I believe Vandal will be my main.

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Was thinking of testing Vandal for this next campaign. Any thoughts on what stats you would put on the armor? I’m guessing crushing pen just not sure what else.

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The issue with YagasGift is that the 15% health with the armor changes is extremely low and in a grp scenario its close to being worthless as it neither prevent your death nor provide u with an eacape.

The cooldown is also quite a huge factor for the worth of the passive...  or rather lack of worth.

 

The second problem with CC is retaliate and ultis pretty much making CC possible to be ignored. 

 

The Vandal lacks burst and sustain.  Taking that sustain from life leech isnt a viable solution as they dont have mail for the mitigations.

 

Dont know a here and now solution to the promotion but its severely lacking a presence in serious gameplay.  Its a novelty build that is fun to test but not really worth compared to the other specs.


Huginn ok Muninn, fljúga hverjan dag, Jörmungrund yfir; óumk ek of Hugin,, at hann aftr né komi-t, þó sjámk meir of Munin

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Just now, xary said:

@Soulreaver what about the ability to harvest harvesters or just better to go Cutt. 

Again.. Retaliate is super strong compared to CC.  If going on a harvester it works IF they have used their Stamina and that is the only viable situations I can see it work.. Where the Cutt can just burn u down faster than u can press the retaliate button :)

 


Huginn ok Muninn, fljúga hverjan dag, Jörmungrund yfir; óumk ek of Hugin,, at hann aftr né komi-t, þó sjámk meir of Munin

Gathering of Ranger videos

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The Vandal lacks burst and sustain.  Taking that sustain from life leech isnt a viable solution as they dont have mail for the mitigations.

This characterizes it perfectly. No burst like the cuthoat, no sustain, but even blackguard's sustain heal/armor isn't good. I've trying to make a ranger (with their sustain heal) into an assassin.


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