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mythx

A thief class

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I believe it would be fun with a similar class we had in old Shadowbane; a class who can peak, pick pocketing, expert with an xbow, and he is, of course, the master of coins! It could be the pirate class of Crowfall and the master treasure hunter! ))  


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Crowfall Game Client: https://www.crowfall.com/en/client/

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Pick pocketing players would be interesting, but then the idea of the game is to kill them and take their stuff.  Or did you mean pick pocket your own faction.

1 hour ago, mythx said:

I believe it would be fun with a similar class we had in old Shadowbane; a class who can peak, pick pocketing, expert with an xbow, and he is, of course, the master of coins! It could be the pirate class of Crowfall and the master treasure hunter! ))  

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Devonic said:

Pick pocketing players would be interesting, but then the idea of the game is to kill them and take their stuff.  Or did you mean pick pocket your own faction.

 

CF is basically SB 2 with some tweaks.  In SB there was one class, thief, who could steal from players inventories but not their equipped items. 

 

3 hours ago, mythx said:

I believe it would be fun with a similar class we had in old Shadowbane; a class who can peak, pick pocketing, expert with an xbow, and he is, of course, the master of coins! It could be the pirate class of Crowfall and the master treasure hunter! ))  

Without a tracking mechanism to help counter it, stealing would be way too strong.  

Edited by mandalore

40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

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If one of their trees is a healing tree then I support this for whatever point in the timeline more classes are added (I think it's a bit premature right now). We need more healers, and more stealth healer options would be good too. Outside discipline based healing your only option there would be a hamster cleric.


"To hell with honor. Win."

A Beginner's Guide to Crowfall (5.8.5 Edition)

 

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10 hours ago, Jah said:

D2o9_ypXQAE0qQB.png:large

Yep. This is on test right now. Hopefully means thief and scout coming soon. Scout is also on test. No more getting away without running anti-stealth.

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On 3/23/2019 at 12:18 PM, mythx said:

I believe it would be fun with a similar class we had in old Shadowbane; a class who can peak, pick pocketing, expert with an xbow, and he is, of course, the master of coins! It could be the pirate class of Crowfall and the master treasure hunter! ))  

Yeah, but we need a tracking power just like in sb. To know if there is a thief in the area (even if we don't know where).

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I like the idea of crossbow, but I suspect between the speculation of Bard and the existence of Assassin (plus consideration of the promotion classes for both), there won't be much room for such a thing.  As is, you could in all rightfulness just give the Bard a crossbow and give them a "Vagabond" promotion that... would give you whatever isn't taken already by assassin (even giving yet another stealth option..).

Between Duelist, Assassin, and one third of Ranger, we're capping pretty high on stealth already.

So instead, having a scouting discipline that lets you simply show a person's inventory, that would be plenty.  If it worked in stealth, you would already know if someone is worth ganking with whatever stealth class you are using.

However, yes, a crossbow would be awesome.  I miss being without such a thing.  Maybe once ranged attacks are cool again, they might have one around, even if it is only a discipline.


Milla's Elemental Mastery [Ravens & Crows - See "About Me" Section]:

Spoiler
  • Rosaline: Elemental of Earth, Female Wood-Elf Earth-Keeper, Political Main.
  • Ametrine: Elemental of Fire, Female Nethari Fire-Sanctifer, Endurance Main.
  • Sylphine: Elemental of Air, Female Fae Storm-Caller, Combat Main.
  • Cyandine: Elemental of Water, Female High-Elf Frost-Weaver, Tactical Main.
  • Lumirine: Elemental of Light, Female Human Holy-Crusader, Support Assist.
  • Ebontine: Elemental of Dark, Female Half-Elf Moon-Warden, Survival Assist.

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10 hours ago, Lanie said:

I like the idea of crossbow, but I suspect between the speculation of Bard and the existence of Assassin (plus consideration of the promotion classes for both), there won't be much room for such a thing.  As is, you could in all rightfulness just give the Bard a crossbow and give them a "Vagabond" promotion that... would give you whatever isn't taken already by assassin (even giving yet another stealth option..).

Between Duelist, Assassin, and one third of Ranger, we're capping pretty high on stealth already.

So instead, having a scouting discipline that lets you simply show a person's inventory, that would be plenty.  If it worked in stealth, you would already know if someone is worth ganking with whatever stealth class you are using.

However, yes, a crossbow would be awesome.  I miss being without such a thing.  Maybe once ranged attacks are cool again, they might have one around, even if it is only a discipline.

The shadowbane thief was  "a class who can peak, pick pocketing, expert with an xbow".  It's why he mentioned it.  Jtodd has made much of Cf from the ashes that were SB.  SB had waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more stealth saturation that CF does.  Rogues could be Assassin, Barbarian, Bard, Huntress, Nightstalker, Ranger, Scout and Thief.  Mages with invisibility were Assassin (yes mage and rogue assy's were a thing), Channeler, Necromancer and Wizard.  Every Shade could hide (stealth with no movement).  That's a lot of stealth. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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13 hours ago, Lanie said:

So instead, having a scouting discipline that lets you simply show a person's inventory, that would be plenty.  If it worked in stealth, you would already know if someone is worth ganking with whatever stealth class you are using.

Scouts should not be implemented "instead" of Thieves. They should both exist. And since Scout and Thief disciplines are already partially implemented in game, I am confident they will both be added.


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2 hours ago, mandalore said:

The shadowbane thief was  "a class who can peak, pick pocketing, expert with an xbow".  It's why he mentioned it.  Jtodd has made much of Cf from the ashes that were SB.  SB had waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more stealth saturation that CF does.  Rogues could be Assassin, Barbarian, Bard, Huntress, Nightstalker, Ranger, Scout and Thief.  Mages with invisibility were Assassin (yes mage and rogue assy's were a thing), Channeler, Necromancer and Wizard.  Every Shade could hide (stealth with no movement).  That's a lot of stealth. 

And technically, I'm still waiting on an option that lets you hide if you activate the "Walking" debuff while out of combat.  But an awful lot of things could weigh into Disciplines in Crowfall, really.  I think the only reason it's less viable is because of the heavy weight they have on the passive skill slot distribution.  If this was expanded better, side classing builds could be a lot more viable, until you have a build that feels in accumulation to be like a specific class theme (even from SB).  Side-loading like this could also be a lot more creative and fun.

1 minute ago, Jah said:

Scouts should not be implemented "instead" of Thieves. They should both exist. And since Scout and Thief disciplines are already partially implemented in game, I am confident they will both be added.

I know I'm a rarity in not pulling a ton of things from SB, as I never did actually play it (and honestly some of my inspiration probably does come from my own history of games).  Technically, a game with "Shadow" blatantly in it's name having a lot of stealth shouldn't even be a big surprise either.  But I still feel like having 700 disciplines is better than having 30 classes.  All that is needed is to improve on the discipline (and passive skill slot) system.  That way, you could have a complete character constructed to feel like the Thief people know, or the Scout people might want, or anything else similar, all tweaked to one's personal preferences.  It just seems more expansive and creative that way.


Milla's Elemental Mastery [Ravens & Crows - See "About Me" Section]:

Spoiler
  • Rosaline: Elemental of Earth, Female Wood-Elf Earth-Keeper, Political Main.
  • Ametrine: Elemental of Fire, Female Nethari Fire-Sanctifer, Endurance Main.
  • Sylphine: Elemental of Air, Female Fae Storm-Caller, Combat Main.
  • Cyandine: Elemental of Water, Female High-Elf Frost-Weaver, Tactical Main.
  • Lumirine: Elemental of Light, Female Human Holy-Crusader, Support Assist.
  • Ebontine: Elemental of Dark, Female Half-Elf Moon-Warden, Survival Assist.

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Just now, Lanie said:

I know I'm a rarity in not pulling a ton of things from SB, as I never did actually play it (and honestly some of my inspiration probably does come from my own history of games).  Technically, a game with "Shadow" blatantly in it's name having a lot of stealth shouldn't even be a big surprise either.  But I still feel like having 700 disciplines is better than having 30 classes.  All that is needed is to improve on the discipline (and passive skill slot) system.  That way, you could have a complete character constructed to feel like the Thief people know, or the Scout people might want, or anything else similar, all tweaked to one's personal preferences.  It just seems more expansive and creative that way.

Thief and Scout are both Disciplines, not Classes.


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In Shadowbane they were classes.  In CF they will be disciplines.  


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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12 minutes ago, Jah said:

Thief and Scout are both Disciplines, not Classes.

The names are Disciplines, the concepts as people know or believe it, who expect it to be a full class, could instead still get what they want from a complete build construct, if things are done right.  They don't need to be a class.

1 minute ago, mandalore said:

In Shadowbane they were classes.  In CF they will be disciplines.  

As mandalore states, the discipline system of CF gives us a new angle for build construction, something players should be able to work with to achieve their total accumulation of vision for their character.  Being a Discipline isn't a bad thing, or shouldn't be.  If the entire discipline system was built well enough, being a discipline should be a good thing.


Milla's Elemental Mastery [Ravens & Crows - See "About Me" Section]:

Spoiler
  • Rosaline: Elemental of Earth, Female Wood-Elf Earth-Keeper, Political Main.
  • Ametrine: Elemental of Fire, Female Nethari Fire-Sanctifer, Endurance Main.
  • Sylphine: Elemental of Air, Female Fae Storm-Caller, Combat Main.
  • Cyandine: Elemental of Water, Female High-Elf Frost-Weaver, Tactical Main.
  • Lumirine: Elemental of Light, Female Human Holy-Crusader, Support Assist.
  • Ebontine: Elemental of Dark, Female Half-Elf Moon-Warden, Survival Assist.

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Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, Jah said:

since Scout and Thief disciplines are already partially implemented in game, I am confident they will both be added.

Jah, I've got 10k dust that says the Thief Disc was put there just special to troll you. 😜

I hope you get to collect that dust, and I get to try out a Scout disc.

 

Edited by VaMei

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2 minutes ago, Lanie said:

The names are Disciplines, the concepts as people know or believe it, who expect it to be a full class, could instead still get what they want from a complete build construct, if things are done right.  They don't need to be a class.

Not sure if you think I am arguing against Thief and Scout being Disciplines, but I am not. Implementing them as Disciplines will work nicely.

I disagreed with your suggestion that they should half-implement Thief as part of Scout, with no ability to actually pickpocket. That would be a crappy way to implement Thieves.


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28 minutes ago, Jah said:

Not sure if you think I am arguing against Thief and Scout being Disciplines, but I am not. Implementing them as Disciplines will work nicely.

I honestly was thinking that was the grounds for your statement.  Thank you for clarifying that.  Sorry about interpreting your statement wrong.

28 minutes ago, Jah said:

I disagreed with your suggestion that they should half-implement Thief as part of Scout, with no ability to actually pickpocket. That would be a crappy way to implement Thieves.

Technically, you got half of my statement wrong, but a portion right.  I was saying you could fragment features of the original Thief options (such as checking inventory) into a type of scouting (my error here was naming an existing Discipline, sorry about that confusion) for the "Checking Inventory".

The part you got right, however, was the explicit exclusion of "actually pickpocket".

On 3/23/2019 at 6:50 AM, Devonic said:

Pick pocketing players would be interesting, but then the idea of the game is to kill them and take their stuff.

I fully agree with this quote.  There is very little grounds for stealing someones stuff when everyone is generally going to do this by killing them.  Even if this was possible, stealing people's stuff is then a way to avoid PVP, which is probably a destructive mentality IMO.  In most potential interpretations of this ability, it would either be junk or unwanted.  In the rest, a mix of both.

If you disagree, I would like to hear your interpretation of the mechanic in play for how it could be applied in CF, both without being a total waste, while also not being used to diminish combat occurrences.


Milla's Elemental Mastery [Ravens & Crows - See "About Me" Section]:

Spoiler
  • Rosaline: Elemental of Earth, Female Wood-Elf Earth-Keeper, Political Main.
  • Ametrine: Elemental of Fire, Female Nethari Fire-Sanctifer, Endurance Main.
  • Sylphine: Elemental of Air, Female Fae Storm-Caller, Combat Main.
  • Cyandine: Elemental of Water, Female High-Elf Frost-Weaver, Tactical Main.
  • Lumirine: Elemental of Light, Female Human Holy-Crusader, Support Assist.
  • Ebontine: Elemental of Dark, Female Half-Elf Moon-Warden, Survival Assist.

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12 minutes ago, Lanie said:

There is very little grounds for stealing someones stuff when everyone is generally going to do this by killing them. 

It sounds like the Thief role simply doesn't appeal to you. That is fine, but it does appeal to numerous other people, which is why there have been quite a few threads asking for Thieves, and why J Todd Coleman has said he plans to include them in the game on multiple occasions.


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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, Lanie said:

If you disagree, I would like to hear your interpretation of the mechanic in play for how it could be applied in CF, both without being a total waste, while also not being used to diminish combat occurrences.

Not to agree or disagree, but I could see stealing the weapon of an enemy healer just as your team strikes. The combat would still happen, just not they way one team expected it to happen. As much of a force multiplier as that thief could be, it would need a hard close look in the balance pass.

Edited by VaMei

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4 minutes ago, Jah said:

It sounds like the Thief role simply doesn't appeal to you. That is fine, but it does appeal to numerous other people, which is why there have been quite a few threads asking for Thieves, and why J Todd Coleman has said he plans to include them in the game on multiple occasions.

Clarifying, by this, do you mean "thieves", or "pickpockets".  Because I've seen a lot of games release thieves, which have a lot of the concept built into the idea, except for one feature... they can't steal.  Don't be caught off guard hearing "thief" and automatically thinking that means stealing will be in.  But, if you heard about the mechanic of theft itself, that's different.

Also keep in mind, they could also spin theft to be either PVP or PVE based, if the idea is accepted at all.  A PVE thief means they can take drops from mobs and are good at getting rares faster than other people (which also means an easier time to get coins from humanoid mobs).  Also, technically, I have no actual problem with this form of theft, but I feel that implementing it would put too much dependency on it, so that might not be such a good thing.

I know there has been a lot of compulsion (from both development and players) to just rip wholesale from SB, but don't just expect it will/should happen by default. Their devs may have new ideas for how to realize an idea in CF, and so hearing the right words that relate to a feature you used to love from SB.. does not automatically mean it will be equal to what we would get here.

9 minutes ago, VaMei said:

Not to agree or disagree, but I could see stealing the weapon of an enemy healer just as your team strikes. The combat would still happen, just not they way one team expected it to happen. As much of a force multiplier as that thief could be, it would a hard close look in the balance pass.

Technically this would be gamebreakingly OP.  Weapons of any notable quality as is take forever to craft, throwing a spare in the inventory is generically far too dangerous, and being caught with no weapon means you can't use any skills or attacks anymore until it is replaced.  This would be a hard lock on everyone's ability, allowing you to hard counter anything at all (so, instead of the healer, steal the heavy axe from all the alpha warriors, so no one can fight anymore, instant win before the battle even starts).  However, if you mean its just a complex way to suppress a target for a while, that's probably fine.


Milla's Elemental Mastery [Ravens & Crows - See "About Me" Section]:

Spoiler
  • Rosaline: Elemental of Earth, Female Wood-Elf Earth-Keeper, Political Main.
  • Ametrine: Elemental of Fire, Female Nethari Fire-Sanctifer, Endurance Main.
  • Sylphine: Elemental of Air, Female Fae Storm-Caller, Combat Main.
  • Cyandine: Elemental of Water, Female High-Elf Frost-Weaver, Tactical Main.
  • Lumirine: Elemental of Light, Female Human Holy-Crusader, Support Assist.
  • Ebontine: Elemental of Dark, Female Half-Elf Moon-Warden, Survival Assist.

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