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mythx

A thief class

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20 minutes ago, Lanie said:

Clarifying, by this, do you mean "thieves", or "pickpockets".  Because I've seen a lot of games release thieves, which have a lot of the concept built into the idea, except for one feature... they can't steal.  Don't be caught off guard hearing "thief" and automatically thinking that means stealing will be in.  But, if you heard about the mechanic of theft itself, that's different.

Also keep in mind, they could also spin theft to be either PVP or PVE based, if the idea is accepted at all.  A PVE thief means they can take drops from mobs and are good at getting rares faster than other people (which also means an easier time to get coins from humanoid mobs).  Also, technically, I have no actual problem with this form of theft, but I feel that implementing it would put too much dependency on it, so that might not be such a good thing.

Yes, by "thief" I do mean someone who steals. And that is what J Todd Coleman, the creative director of this game, means as well. He has used the term "picking pockets" to describe what they do, and confirmed he plans to include that functionality on multiple occasions.

No, PvE-only thievery would not be acceptable in this PvP-centric game.

Edited by Jah

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1 minute ago, Jah said:

Yes, by "thief" I do mean someone who steals. And that is what J Todd Coleman, the creative director of this game, means as well. He has used the term "picking pockets" to describe what they do, and confirmed he plans to include that functionality on multiple occasions.

No, PvE-only thievery would not be acceptable in this PvP-centric game.

If that's how it will be, that's how it will be.  Depending on the details though, I still have my own concerns about it.  The previous "junk or unwanted" statement, where either the option is too pitiful to have any rational use, or is otherwise replacing the step of "enter pvp state" and just leading to players with reduced inventory and reduced combat (aka, take away the fun of the game)... certainly hope neither then occur.  I have no idea how this would be avoided, but I'm going to then just assume this conflict is why there is delays for the feature.  No reason to complain about something that I know nothing more about, until it actually happens.

I still do suspect though that "pick pocket" would then become another Discipline.  It's still sounding like the source vision for thief is just a whole lot easier to split into pieces.


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On 5/9/2019 at 1:28 PM, Jah said:

Not sure if you think I am arguing against Thief and Scout being Disciplines, but I am not. Implementing them as Disciplines will work nicely.

The eagle does not pull a plow, Dardalion, and M60 gunners don't walk point.

- David Gemmell (Paraphrased!)

There's a big difference between your average grunt walking point for a platoon every now and again and being a Lurp out in the boonies. I see no reason why you wouldn't want a specialist and someone who can occasionally don the mantle when needed. I.E. - Why not have the class and the disc?


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29 minutes ago, vandarr said:

The eagle does not pull a plow, Dardalion, and M60 gunners don't walk point.

- David Gemmell (Paraphrased!)

There's a big difference between your average grunt walking point for a platoon every now and again and being a Lurp out in the boonies. I see no reason why you wouldn't want a specialist and someone who can occasionally don the mantle when needed. I.E. - Why not have the class and the disc?

I’d love to see Thief and Scout classes added. Hard to imagine that happening before launch though, so I put my hopes on disciplines.


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After reading through here, my thought on an actual cut purse style thief  in Crowfall would to make the Pick Pocket as part of the combat. Landing a crit gives you a % chance to steal out of the targets inventory one random item. Max crit w/ max Dmg and prefect Pick Pocket check can steal a secondary equipped item, ie pick, ring, neckless, ect.

In regards to stealing weapons out a combatants hands, only under the perfect conditions. Undetected stealth, stealth attack, plus max crit w/ max Dmg and prefect Pick Pocket check. The other players perception can counter any pick pocket attempted.

Just something off the top of my head.

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As a class, what would scout bring that doesn't already have strong overlap with Assassin, Dualist or a Brigand?

IMO, a major disc with +Stealth, +Stealth Move Speed, Awareness (+20m farsight passive, all trays), an active tracking power (survival tray), and an escape power or two would fit the bill nicely. Available to Assassin, Ranger, probably Dualist, and maybe Knight, but the stealth bonuses would be lost on Knights, Wardens & Archers.

Beyond picking pockets I'm not sure what a Thief is supposed to do. I'll defer to Jah on that one.

Edited by VaMei

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1 hour ago, VaMei said:

As a class, what would scout bring that doesn't already have strong overlap with Assassin, Dualist or a Brigand?

IMO, a major disc with +Stealth, +Stealth Move Speed, Awareness (+20m farsight passive, all trays), an active tracking power (survival tray), and an escape power or two would fit the bill nicely. Available to Assassin, Ranger, probably Dualist, and maybe Knight, but the stealth bonuses would be lost on Knights, Wardens & Archers.

Beyond picking pockets I'm not sure what a Thief is supposed to do. I'll defer to Jah on that one.

Jah IS a thief.  He stole my heart...


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

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6 hours ago, Azerlin said:

After reading through here, my thought on an actual cut purse style thief  in Crowfall would to make the Pick Pocket as part of the combat. Landing a crit gives you a % chance to steal out of the targets inventory one random item. Max crit w/ max Dmg and prefect Pick Pocket check can steal a secondary equipped item, ie pick, ring, neckless, ect.

In regards to stealing weapons out a combatants hands, only under the perfect conditions. Undetected stealth, stealth attack, plus max crit w/ max Dmg and prefect Pick Pocket check. The other players perception can counter any pick pocket attempted.

Just something off the top of my head.

That is a terrible idea which completely kills any reason for scouting and antistealth roles to be a thing.

SB's stealth implementation was built so that stealth was a multifunctional threat. Even if you were standing around in a group of ten people, a thief was a threat that needed to be accounted for, and as such part of a "complete" group included no only combat support, but intelligence support to protect you from surprises and thievery.

In a war simultation, intelligence gathering roles are crucial to the overall feel of the game. Stealth was powerful, but had powerful counters, and the stealthers, scouts, and thieves of the world were thus playing a much more interesting game that had a much larger effect on everyone else. It prevented them from being either over or underpowered and created a set of specialist skillsets that allowed a lot of emergent tactical play that would not have otherwise been possible.

This is one of the reasons SB is so well remembered. Its also why EVE works as well as it does, as there is an entire class of play centered around stealth, scanning, and stealth counters that requires more complex tactical play than "bring all your dudes to a spot" and opens the door for more effective and complex feints, deception, and a richer tactical experience as a result.


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8 hours ago, VaMei said:

Beyond picking pockets I'm not sure what a Thief is supposed to do. I'll defer to Jah on that one

Off the top of my head were I to design thief/scout discs it would look something like:

Thief

Ranger, Assassin, Duelist

+10 Stealth

"It might not be the world's oldest profession, but it's definitely the world's oldest source of income."

-Molan Vek, Professional Fence

Peek/Pickpocket (stealth tray, 20m range) - View the inventory of your target. You may mark an item as your pickpocketing target or close the window. When you mark and item this ability becomes Pickpocket, and your peek target is marked with the GOLD "Peek" status for you and your group. This status is not visible to the target or their allies. This status remains until the target dies, you use the pickpocket skill, the target moves out of view range, or the target becomes invisible to you. If the target loses this status this ability reverts back to Peek

Pickpocket (Stealth Tray, Melee) - Attempt to pickpocket your chosen Item, comparing your roll of 20+Stealth versus their roll of 20+Perception. If your target has an active perception buff, this roll automatically fails.

If you are successful, you remain stealthed and gain the chosen item. Your target loses this item, and a shadow of the item, marked STOLEN remains in their inventory, but no other notification is afforded. This shadow will be removed if another inventory item occupies this spot.

If you are unsuccessful, you are revealed and Exposed for 15 seconds.

Smoke Bomb (Combat Trays, PBAOE Debuff) - Deploy a smoke bomb, blinding up to 3 targets within 10m for 5 seconds.

Hustle (Stealth Tray, Passive) - When this is equipped, Your movement speed in stealth is 10% faster.

Thief's Reflexes (All Trays, Passive) - When this is equipped, gain the "Muscle Memory" buff for 30 seconds after being hit with a stealth attack. Muscle Memory grants 2% to all mitigations and -10% incoming crit chance.

 

Inquisitor (AKA Scout)

Ranger, Knight, Cleric

+10 Perception

Gain Crow Sight (You may see other players who are in crow form, their names are displayed in blue)

"Though the Gods may agree on the need for the Crows, they can't ever seem to agree on what to do with them. Viewed with a combination of suspicion and reverence, those Crows who hunt their kin are vital to what fragile balance remains in the ethereal power structure after the death of Gaea and the disappearance of the All-Father."

- Sahandri Toos, "On the History of Modern Demigods"

Track Crows (Survival/Stealth Tray, Toggle) - Root yourself and focus on your environment for 15 seconds to toggle tracking mode on. Gain colored circular icons on your compass for enemies and allies within 9 parcels (or an equivalent large range) These icons become larger as the enemies or allies move closer and merge with each other at longer distances. Tracking becomes detoggled if you enter combat or take damage. Stealthed targets within view range of you do not report their exact position, in stead displaying as a red or green ! under your compass.

Note: On the back end this should allow tracking at long range to register the presence of players in a parcel rather than their exact position/number for server performance, as well as make long range tracking information "fuzzy" enough to encourage scouts to go inspect the area for more detailed counts.

Seek Crows (Survival/Stealth Trays) - You (and only you) percieve stealthed enemies for 15 seconds, 30 second cooldown. This perception ability may be used in stealth, but does not grant the perception state to other players under any circumstances. While both Seek Crows and Track are active, you may track nearby stealthed targets, and their ! icons are moved to your compass.

Sense Crows (Passive, all trays) - When this is equipped, you perceive the crests, names, and HP bars of any player within your vision range. Sense Crows also marks stealthed enemies with their crests as if they were not stealthed when you have an active perception buff.

Expose Crow (Active, Survival/Stealth Trays, 30m range) - Expose an enemy target, inflicting both the exposed debuff and faerie fire for 15 seconds. This faerie fire deals no damage.

 

Cartographer's Kit (Equippable Belt Slot Item)

"If there's a place you need to go, I'm the one you gotta know."

- Unknown Cartographer

Any Class

You gain additional map filters, and automatically mark the location of resources and mob spawners on your map.

Gain Survival Crafting Recipe - Survey Map - Survey maps are constructed from paper, and record the location of all  resources or mob spawners on the current parcel that you know. When consumed by another player these markers are added to their map.

Gain Survival Crafting Recipe - Location Map - Location maps are constructed from paper and record your current location. When consumed by yourself or another player a Location Map adds a marker to their map, and if on the same island, to their compass.

Gain Survival Recipe (Must be done at a general/woodworking table) - Copy Map - Crafted from one map and requiring a stack of 5 paper, creates five copies of the input map of either type.

Edited by PopeUrban

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Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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2 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

That is a terrible idea which completely kills any reason for scouting and antistealth roles to be a thing.

I was only touching base on the pick pocket part of the conversation, nothing about scouting and stealth, just on how to handle the one aspect of the thief "class". Personally, I would think this would increase the need for anti-stealth to be part of others stats. Scouting has nothing to do with pick pocketing.

 

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2 hours ago, Azerlin said:

I was only touching base on the pick pocket part of the conversation, nothing about scouting and stealth, just on how to handle the one aspect of the thief "class". Personally, I would think this would increase the need for anti-stealth to be part of others stats. Scouting has nothing to do with pick pocketing.

 

Scouting only has nothing to do with pickpocketing if pickpocketing doesn't require stealth.

Which is why pickpocketing having nothing to do with stealth is a terrible idea in my personal opinion.


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Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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Thief is fine on a disc IMO. 

We're not getting anymore classes beyond Frostweaver pre-launch and the first post launch class DEFINITELY needs to be another support/healer. 

A while back when we still had race/class training and the Duelist was in the "scoundrel" category all by itself we talked about adding a Bard support class. 


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1 hour ago, Jah said:

Shadowbane-style Peeking and Stealing or I riot.

^


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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1 hour ago, blazzen said:

Thief is fine on a disc IMO. 

We're not getting anymore classes beyond Frostweaver pre-launch and the first post launch class DEFINITELY needs to be another support/healer. 

A while back when we still had race/class training and the Duelist was in the "scoundrel" category all by itself we talked about adding a Bard support class. 

I kinda want them to add 6 archetype for each class. 

Move all base class active skill to pre level 15, Shift the archetype split to lvl 15 then you split them again at 25 for advance archetypes. As a quick example rangers split to say archers at 15 then at 25 they split again to say sharpshooter and arcane archer. One being more specialised in long range attack using high tension bows with physical arrows where arcane archer has a mid range focus with faster atracks as a trade off for the range. 

 

Stealth ranger could be focus on stealth in one anvancd archetype and the other line could be a trap specialist. 

 

Edited by veeshan

Veeshan Midst of UXA

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1 minute ago, veeshan said:

I kinda want them to add 6 archetype for each class. 

Move all base class active skill to pre level 15, Shift the archetype split to lvl 15 then you split them again at 25 for advance archetypes. As a quick example rangers split to say archers at 15 then at 25 they split again to say sharpshooter and arcane archer. One being more specialised in long range attack using high tension bows with physical arrows where arcane archer has a mid range focus with faster atracks as a trade off for the range. 

 

Stealth ranger could be focus on stealth in one anvancd archetype and the other line could be a trap specialist. 

 

And I want the game to be released in my children’s lifetime...


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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5 hours ago, Jah said:

Shadowbane-style Peeking and Stealing or I riot.

I'm already in the Crowfall offices waiting for my chance to code a scout class into the game. Since they can't detect me, who's going to know? :)

Edited by vandarr

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13 minutes ago, vandarr said:

I'm already in the Crowfall offices waiting for my chance to code a scout class into the game. Since they can't detect me, who's going to know? :)

Careful, one of the Ranger promotions is pretty good at detecting stealthers.


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23 hours ago, Jah said:

Careful, one of the Ranger promotions is pretty good at detecting stealthers.

Bah. In the world of MMOs, rangers are just another form of hippies.


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