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First Look: War Tribes - Official discussion thread

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4 minutes ago, Devonic said:

would have to be pvp dungeons

 

Yeah, they're definitely going to be open-world dungeons. I imagine they'll work similar to how canyons currently work, except they'll be more dungeon-y


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You Can't Be A Genius, If You Aren't The Slightest Bit Insane.

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I regularly attend local indie game dev meetups, and I am continually astonished (astonished!) at how many game developers there are who have, as their sole aspiration, the desire to re-invent the wheel.

Me:  "What are you making?"

Them:  "Well, it's basically a Diablo clone, but mine has some different monsters."

Me:  "WHYYYY????"

~~~

I harbored the illusion that the ArtCraft team was different.  I believed that they weren't just creating the next MMO clone.  But after piles of meaningless skill trees, the revelation that there will be experience and leveling, limited use recipes, mob bloat, etc. I'm reformulating my opinion of the motivations driving this team.

18 hours ago, srathor said:

I can't wait for the 20 man Instances and Raidfinder!

But, seriously.  This is not just frustration, this is accurate and scathing satire.  And it resonates.

It feels like we are watching the game we were hoping for slowly sail away into the distance.

~~~

Every small change is easy to rationalize and justify.  However, the sum of the small changes is adding up to substantial drift away from the original vision.  I know I'm harshing on someone's baby, but it seems to me that this baby is getting bloated and off-course.  I feel like we were sold something different.

Is it too late to refocus on the original game design goals?


Nazdar

Proud member of The Hunger

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1 minute ago, Nazdar said:

Every small change is easy to rationalize and justify. 

I think you are reading a lot into some mobs that drop loot. Did your really think the game wasn't going to have mobs and loot?


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2 minutes ago, Jah said:

I think you are reading a lot into some mobs that drop loot. Did your really think the game wasn't going to have mobs and loot?

It's not about any one feature.  It's about overall emphasis.  If I felt like the core game design objectives were being given as much attention as the periphery, I wouldn't be voicing this frustration.


Nazdar

Proud member of The Hunger

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1 minute ago, Nazdar said:

It's not about any one feature.  It's about overall emphasis.  If I felt like the core game design objectives were being given as much attention as the periphery, I wouldn't be voicing this frustration.

Which core game design objectives are you referring to? Combat? That has already seen the lion's share of the development time. Sieging? That has gotten a lot of love too. 

The bottom line is that currently, there isn't enough content in the game. The game can't be 100% killing each other, otherwise it's just a MOBA. The different game spheres have always be part of the design: combat, crafting and exploration/harvesting. Each needs to be substantial in its own right, and each needs to contribute to the others as both supply and demand. 

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f9nbMS7.png

Mmm, Not rats! We have Ugru now.

We have xp bars. Upon green vessel xp bars, upon blue vessel xp bars.  You get the idea. 
We have meaningless badges.. See the Malaki participation trophy. 
We have a game. (Circle standing for 20 minutes)
We have players. About 300 of them. Good movie. 
We have skill! Well yall do. 

Allies Check. 
Enemies. Check.
Alliances. Oh yeah Look at balance. So Balanced. 
Betrayal. Check. Stinking Hitler Elves. 
Risk. I play a gatherer. I know Risk. 
Conquest!.  Yep See circles. yay.
Thousands. Nope. 
Claim the throne.... We cant sit in it. We can't claim or interact with it. It sits there. Uncaring. Waiting. 

I have lost. Time and effort, a bit of money.  Lost a lot of hope too. And quite a bit of trust. And I get killed a lot when I bother to play. 

The experience. It wasn't hollow. Past tense.  Last yearish. Very very hollow. 

Worthless Trophy. Mmmm. Nuff said. 

All the knobs, so little twisting. Twisting, twisting, in the wind. 

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1 hour ago, Nazdar said:

It's not about any one feature.  It's about overall emphasis.  If I felt like the core game design objectives were being given as much attention as the periphery, I wouldn't be voicing this frustration.

What exactly did you think was the design vision here? Because so far there isn't anything added that deviates from what they said except dungeon. But I believe you are thinking of this in sense of a game like world of Warcraft. When it will be more like Ultima Online Felucca. But less emphasis on items and more on recipes.

 

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1 hour ago, Arkade said:

The bottom line is that currently, there isn't enough content in the game. The game can't be 100% killing each other, otherwise it's just a MOBA.

 

That's a weird claim because even MOBAs have phases of play where you are encouraged to not actively try and kill the enemy players the whole time. The similarity here is that when working on this non-active-PvP objective that will help push you ahead in capability, you have to be wary of unexpected active-PvP coming at you by surprise.

The main things that separates CF from real MOBAs a primarily a sense of permanence for gear + passive training (character power), and captured objectives (guild/faction power).

This idea that the game needs more PvE content for people to play is nonsense, that is just something that folks say when they lack the confidence or ability to (in their mind) go out and actively PvP, either because of not having the necessary gear or necessary ability. So, instead they go out and harvest. Not a bad thing mind you, especially if you need gear crafted to reach a necessary parity with your enemies.

Or, if they feel up to PvP but can't find somebody to fight they go out and harvest, you know until they find somebody and then fight.

For the people who have the will and capability (gear and game knowledge) to PvP in earnest, every day they are going in to the game trying to find a fight, they aren't going in and saying, man I just want to go hit on some NPC's. Maybe a few are, but man I seriously doubt its a lot, mainly because I sit in Discord all day listening and reading what 100+ different people are talking about their interests.

This game doesn't need more PvE content, though I think what they are adding is fine and a good thing, but what it really needs more people who want to play and play hard. None of these game-loop systems and map designs work when there isn't a critical mass of people who want to keep going through the gate to find somebody to kill. It's a negative feedback loop that brings a campaign to its conclusion well before the actual end date.

For the most part, I don't blame the lack of PvE content for my perceived negative feedback loop, I blame the lack of an interesting territory control system that is fun and engaging to play around. Couple that with disparate levels of interest in playing hard between the different cohorts of players and you have the perfect recipe for another big down turn in activity levels.

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If you want to win campaigns you have to generate points. 

Right now the most points and easiest points are to go to capture points and take them over. If you can do it right after the enemy has left then you also deny them points. A long gap where you hold the capture spots generates the best points as well, so nightcapping is the most effective way to generate points. 

Unless you own the map, fighting is a waste of time to win.

This is where the problem is in the so called pvp game. It is more efficient to avoid fights and cap locations until you are already winning, And even when winning unless you can stop the other players from cutting into your points accrual it will always be more efficient to avoid fights and capture more areas to generate more points. 

I have made suggestions, others have made suggestions, until something is done by ACE to fix it, the game will still be at odds with itself. 

War tribes do nothing to address the core issue that is on display. It is time filler that would be better spent capping location to win.  If they gave each war tribes parcel it's own capture flag that generated points then things might get interesting. If they took it a step farther and set it up so that the flag generated 100 points total in a 15 minute timeframe but only 10 of that was from capture and holding the flag, but the other 90 was from player kills in the area they might be onto something.  Killing mobs or enemy players generated a point for each death.  Once the 100 cap is reached all extra kills are wasted for score wise. But you still get the loots of course. 

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, srathor said:

War tribes do nothing to address the core issue that is on display. 

War tribes are not meant to address the core issues with scoring or victory conditions. Its just more mob types.

Scoring and victory conditions do need a lot of work. Bashing the addition of some new mob types doesn't help with that, though.

Edited by Jah

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39 minutes ago, DocHollidaze said:

This idea that the game needs more PvE content for people to play is nonsense, that is just something that folks say when they lack the confidence or ability to (in their mind) go out and actively PvP, either because of not having the necessary gear or necessary ability. So, instead they go out and harvest. Not a bad thing mind you, especially if you need gear crafted to reach a necessary parity with your enemies.

Or, if they feel up to PvP but can't find somebody to fight they go out and harvest, you know until they find somebody and then fight.

The game needs a full economy loop. Each sphere of gameplay needs to be complete and fulfilling. It isn't about adding PvE to a PvP game. It's about adding things that enhance the overall game experience. 

If you can't find someone to fight, what do you do? Okay, you can harvest. Now it's winter, and you can't find someone to fight. What do you do? If you aren't trained for harvesting, you probably won't bother doing that. So what else can you do? That's the problem they are addressing. We aren't talking quests and raids here. There was always going to be mobs in the world and there was always going to be loot drops. We've known for a long time now that minor disciplines would drop from mobs and we would need to capture thralls to craft major disciplines. 

In a MOBA, yes, there may be times that are focused on preparation rather than fighting, but you know when and where the fight is happening, and you don't have wait long for it. You don't have to go out looking for a fight or wait for a siege time.

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34 minutes ago, Arkade said:

The game needs a full economy loop. Each sphere of gameplay needs to be complete and fulfilling. It isn't about adding PvE to a PvP game. It's about adding things that enhance the overall game experience. 

If you can't find someone to fight, what do you do? Okay, you can harvest. Now it's winter, and you can't find someone to fight. What do you do? If you aren't trained for harvesting, you probably won't bother doing that. So what else can you do? That's the problem they are addressing. We aren't talking quests and raids here. There was always going to be mobs in the world and there was always going to be loot drops. We've known for a long time now that minor disciplines would drop from mobs and we would need to capture thralls to craft major disciplines. 

In a MOBA, yes, there may be times that are focused on preparation rather than fighting, but you know when and where the fight is happening, and you don't have wait long for it. You don't have to go out looking for a fight or wait for a siege time.

 

Right I get that, but "adding more content" as you put it will in my opinion change nothing, or at the very least only a small fraction of players will now be slightly less bored.

Quote

If you can't find someone to fight, what do you do? Okay, you can harvest. Now it's winter, and you can't find someone to fight. What do you do? If you aren't trained for harvesting, you probably won't bother doing that. So what else can you do? That's the problem they are addressing.

People farm mobs in the winter, that is what you do now, and that will be what you do in 5.8.5. however now the mobs will be tougher and people farming them will be easier to gank. Good for people like me I suppose?

People will still be farming NPC's like they do now, and a lot of those players will be ganked horribly and come back to the forums complaining about assassins or gear disparities or whatever. I don't really see these additions making more people play, rather it will actually increase the barriers for people to overcome to be able to achieve parity for active PvP.

Now, don't get me wrong, I welcome these changes and additions, I just don't believe the assertion it's going to drive more overall play.

The folks who are thinking when they see this stuff, "WOh, cool, I can't wait to fight these mobs and try it out" they're probably going to be killed a lot by other players.

Organized groups will still farm the sht out of mobs, in well structured groups that are only going to be assailable by other larger well-structured groups. They'll figure out how to optimize the farming, and we will all be nowhere different from where we are now.

What I think will actually drive more overall play is making the strategic game loop factors fun and interesting enough that people will choose to participate in those features, in the way that is intended by ACE (meaning fight not ninja cap), even if they feel highly certain they will lose (their perception not necessarily true). Also making it so players are better funneled into conflict around things that matter in a way that reflects the amount of players in the game (sounds like this is coming with more siege window functionality).

Again, I don't believe adding a bunch of new PvE content will magically drive conflict if they are scattered all over the game world and it takes an hour or more to scout all of the spots and it is low pop (critical mass of players issue rearing its head again).

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War tribes exist to address the question "I wanted to PvP but nobody wants to fight me right now, what do I do?" for the people that don't want to harvest.

There are a ton of posts begging for the ability to just farm mobs for something of value.

War Tribes are that "something of value" so that all those harvesters and crafters have a reason to buy something rather than just selling it for gold that's only going to go to other harvesters and crafters.

The game in its current state is very unkind to the economic prospects of a person who really just wants to kill stuff, and some people just don't like hitting nodes.


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Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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To me, the most important function these war tribes supply is a starting point for where to put the drops for disciplines. There are lots of disciplines, and if they are going to come from mobs there need to be lots of mobs.


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Posted (edited)

mobs need to be toned down on their cc and aracoix druids lightning burst spam, also combining the artifacts is based off of basic crafting hich kinda sucks, there shouldnt bee a skill required to combine them.. if i add 10 epic artifacts i should get an epic sacrifice item

Edited by yianni

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34 minutes ago, yianni said:

mobs need to be toned down on their cc and aracoix druids lightning burst spam, also combining the artifacts is based off of basic crafting hich kinda sucks, there shouldnt bee a skill required to combine them.. if i add 10 epic artifacts i should get an epic sacrifice item

I thought it was based off runecrafting, no? Still sucks, but something else runecrafters can do besides tools


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You Can't Be A Genius, If You Aren't The Slightest Bit Insane.

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Would you potentially bring in other races from SB? Like Shade, Nephilim , Irekei and Vampires? Is there potential that some of the new races for War Tribes will be playable races after launch?

 

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1 hour ago, Doomshadow said:

irekei

Lore wise they are fire worshipping elves that are supposed to be red skins so High Elf Confessors are (eventually red) elves in a fire worshipping cult. 

 

 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

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Posted (edited)

 

11 hours ago, Nazdar said:

I regularly attend local indie game dev meetups, and I am continually astonished (astonished!) at how many game developers there are who have, as their sole aspiration, the desire to re-invent the wheel.

Me:  "What are you making?"

Them:  "Well, it's basically a Diablo clone, but mine has some different monsters."

Me:  "WHYYYY????"

~~~

I harbored the illusion that the ArtCraft team was different.  I believed that they weren't just creating the next MMO clone.  But after piles of meaningless skill trees, the revelation that there will be experience and leveling, limited use recipes, mob bloat, etc. I'm reformulating my opinion of the motivations driving this team.

But, seriously.  This is not just frustration, this is accurate and scathing satire.  And it resonates.

It feels like we are watching the game we were hoping for slowly sail away into the distance.

~~~

Every small change is easy to rationalize and justify.  However, the sum of the small changes is adding up to substantial drift away from the original vision.  I know I'm harshing on someone's baby, but it seems to me that this baby is getting bloated and off-course.  I feel like we were sold something different.

Is it too late to refocus on the original game design goals?

Didn't realize "dungeons" in an open world MMO could be so controversial.

Let's look at it like this, can we even have a "throne war" without a living world to navigate and conquer? Can players feel engaged solely upon objective-based player vs player nodes on an on-demand basis any and every time they log in? No. Definitely not. And I am sure I am not the only one who would've abstained from ponying up the money had my interpretation of an "MMO" been "content that is only playable when other players make it possible", yeah, no. The opportunity of engaging other players should be massively rewarding, and the pinnacle of experiences to be had in crowfall but the outcome of not having much to do without them would make this game DOA.

War tribes and dungeons create hurdles and attractions that will draw player engagement through need or want. I'd think the benefit of driving players towards similar places to create conflict would be obvious.

To everyone else implying better design around pure-PvP objectives would somehow gaurantee a consistent flow of players to provide said content, uh, Age of Wushu, anyone?

Edited by Lightsig

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